58% of Americans understand that the economy crashed under Bush

[Moby]

Of course 35% of Republicans can't seem to remember all the way back to 2007 when things started.

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/102909_poll.pdf

[MintJulep]

Bush has been gone for a year. Where are the jobs? The stimulus had to be signed in an "emergency" and no one was allowed to read it. The reasoning given for this was it meant to keep UE at 8% and immediately start creating jobs?

WTH happened?! This county is in the biggest mess in my lifetime.

[bairdi]

Bush has been gone for a year. Where are the jobs? The stimulus had to be signed in an "emergency" and no one was allowed to read it. The reasoning given for this was it meant to keep UE at 8% and immediately start creating jobs?

WTH happened?! This county is in the biggest mess in my lifetime.
The worst freakin president of my lifetime created the worst freakin economic crisis of my lifetime. If you think Obama can wave some magic wand and fix it in less than a year then you must truly believe that he is the Messiah. Right wing conservatives created the problem and now we have the conservative party of NO and conservative blue dog democrats obstructing any and all progress toward recovery. Economists warned that a much larger stimulus was needed if we wanted to pull out of the economic crisis quickly, but the conservative whiners and right wing media kicked in to obstruct once again and in the name of compromise we had to settle for a fix that was inadequate. In spite of that though, we are digging our way out of the mess. Where were your complaints that the war wasn't ended within a year after it started?

[doctordog]

This is Jimmy Carter all over again but worse. When Jimmy was in we printed money and added a 13% cash flow to the nation. We have have now printed enough to add approximately 100% to the cash flow in the nation.

In the Carter years if you remember interest rates on borrowed money were over 20% (22 I think) and savings were drawing as much as 17%.;

That was the result of Carters actions, can you imagine the interest rates we could see now? I am liquidating everything I don't need and making sure I am ready for the the big interest we will be drawing soon. If you owe money, I would make sure it was a fixed interest rate or you will be screwed.

[MarkMiller]

Bush has been gone for a year. Where are the jobs? The stimulus had to be signed in an "emergency" and no one was allowed to read it. The reasoning given for this was it meant to keep UE at 8% and immediately start creating jobs?

WTH happened?! This county is in the biggest mess in my lifetime.
Damn girl....you can't count?

[MarkMiller]

This is Jimmy Carter all over again but worse. When Jimmy was in we printed money and added a 13% cash flow to the nation. We have have now printed enough to add approximately 100% to the cash flow in the nation.

In the Carter years if you remember interest rates on borrowed money were over 20% (22 I think) and savings were drawing as much as 17%.;

That was the result of Carters actions, can you imagine the interest rates we could see now? I am liquidating everything I don't need and making sure I am ready for the the big interest we will be drawing soon. If you owe money, I would make sure it was a fixed interest rate or you will be screwed.
Carter didn't do anything different than what had been done in the past, it wasn't nearly the same problem as today...but you do have a point about what printing money and Obama repeating Carter like mistakes.....one is that he is weak to the opposition party. He will not get a second term with the work he has done so far. People don't see the big picture they see the little things. He is awful at the little things....like his basketball game with the guys. Just more of the same men's club mentality, except, personaly I still think Obama is gay.

[MintJulep]

Damn girl....you can't count?Excuse me?

[MarkMiller]

Excuse me?
3 months short of a year. (giggle)

[MintJulep]

Close enough.........

[doctordog]

Carter didn't do anything different than what had been done in the past, it wasn't nearly the same problem as today...but you do have a point about what printing money and Obama repeating Carter like mistakes.....one is that he is weak to the opposition party. He will not get a second term with the work he has done so far. People don't see the big picture they see the little things. He is awful at the little things....like his basketball game with the guys. Just more of the same men's club mentality, except, personaly I still think Obama is gay.

Did you see where he over turned that 27 year ban? I started a thread on it. You may be right.

[MarkMiller]

Close enough.........
For government work....Buahahahahahahaha!

[MarkMiller]

Did you see where he over turned that 27 year ban? I started a thread on it. You may be right.
Yeah, I asked a question on that thread.

[Lou_Dobbs]

Carter didn't do anything different than what had been done in the past, it wasn't nearly the same problem as today...but you do have a point about what printing money and Obama repeating Carter like mistakes.....one is that he is weak to the opposition party. He will not get a second term with the work he has done so far. People don't see the big picture they see the little things. He is awful at the little things....like his basketball game with the guys. Just more of the same men's club mentality, except, personaly I still think Obama is gay.

At least he's not running around the woods of Bohemian Grove naked.

Like those republicans.

[MarkMiller]

At least he's not running around the woods of Bohemian Grove naked.

Like those republicans.
What does that even mean?

[Lou_Dobbs]

What does that even mean?

It means that every important Republican meets up every July in Bohemian Grove, near San Francisco, and has a ''party'' like event with a homosexual theme. No women allowed only men.

[MarkMiller]

It means that every important Republican meets up every July in Bohemian Grove, near San Francisco, and has a ''party'' like event with a homosexual theme. No women allowed only men.
I don't think that's a Republican theme....as I understand it...this is a rumor never proved and included past Democrats.

[Lou_Dobbs]

It happens.

And yeah there have been some democrats but mostly Republicans. There have been people who worked there that have released video and people have been seen coming and going, photos and so on.

There's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes, especially when it comes to people in positions of power. They make it very hard for people to get ''proof''.

[MarkMiller]

It happens.

And yeah there have been some democrats but mostly Republicans. There have been people who worked there that have released video and people have been seen coming and going, photos and so on.

There's a lot of stuff that goes on behind the scenes, especially when it comes to people in positions of power. They make it very hard for people to get ''proof''.
Wiki....

On July 15, 2000, Austin, Texas-based filmmaker Alex Jones and his cameraman, Mike Hanson, walked into the Grove. With a hidden camera, Jones and Hanson were able to film the Cremation of Care ceremony. The footage was the centerpiece of Jones' documentary Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove.[21] Jones claimed that the Cremation of Care was an "ancient Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon mystery religion ceremony," and that the owl statue was Moloch. The Grove and Jones' investigation were covered by Jon Ronson in Channel 4's four-part documentary, Secret Rulers of the World. Ronson documented his view of the ritual in his book, Them: Adventures With Extremists, writing that it was a startling, immature, and bizarre way for world leaders to spend their summer vacations, but that he did not see evidence of covert Satanism. According to his description of the account it was nothing more than a fraternity-esque ritual, and the only reason one could see it as Satanic was if one were looking for Satanism in it to begin with.

Also filmed for The Order of Death[22] was Jones' return to the entrance of the Bohemian Grove in 2005 where he filmed a protest organized by the Bohemian Grove Action Network that took place at the Grove's entrance on Bohemian Highway, only to discover a majority of the protesters engaging in an "occult counter-ritual" known as the Resurrection of Care, supposedly a counter-ritual against the Cremation of Care. Jones' narration for the film lambasted the protesters' actions and motivations from a religious standpoint. In 2005, Chris Jones (no relation) walked into the Grove when hired as an employee, and videotaped the Owl Shrine in daylight, even venturing inside the hollow statue.[23] Chris Jones said he was regularly propositioned for sex by the Grovers. Chris Jones was subsequently sentenced to three years in state prison for sexual assault of minors.[24] Alex Jones included Chris Jones' video in "The Order of Death".[25]

Actor/writer Harry Shearer (This is Spinal Tap, Saturday Night Live, The Simpsons), who has attended at least one Bohemian Club event, wrote and directed The Teddy Bears' Picnic, a parody of Bohemian Grove mock pagan pageantry and drunken revelry.[26]

[Lou_Dobbs]

Wiki....

On July 15, 2000, Austin, Texas-based filmmaker Alex Jones and his cameraman, Mike Hanson, walked into the Grove. With a hidden camera, Jones and Hanson were able to film the Cremation of Care ceremony. The footage was the centerpiece of Jones' documentary Dark Secrets: Inside Bohemian Grove.[21] Jones claimed that the Cremation of Care was an "ancient Canaanite, Luciferian, Babylon mystery religion ceremony," and that the owl statue was Moloch. The Grove and Jones' investigation were covered by Jon Ronson in Channel 4's four-part documentary, Secret Rulers of the World. Ronson documented his view of the ritual in his book, Them: Adventures With Extremists, writing that it was a startling, immature, and bizarre way for world leaders to spend their summer vacations, but that he did not see evidence of covert Satanism. According to his description of the account it was nothing more than a fraternity-esque ritual, and the only reason one could see it as Satanic was if one were looking for Satanism in it to begin with.

Also filmed for The Order of Death[22] was Jones' return to the entrance of the Bohemian Grove in 2005 where he filmed a protest organized by the Bohemian Grove Action Network that took place at the Grove's entrance on Bohemian Highway, only to discover a majority of the protesters engaging in an "occult counter-ritual" known as the Resurrection of Care, supposedly a counter-ritual against the Cremation of Care. Jones' narration for the film lambasted the protesters' actions and motivations from a religious standpoint. In 2005, Chris Jones (no relation) walked into the Grove when hired as an employee, and videotaped the Owl Shrine in daylight, even venturing inside the hollow statue.[23] Chris Jones said he was regularly propositioned for sex by the Grovers. Chris Jones was subsequently sentenced to three years in state prison for sexual assault of minors.[24] Alex Jones included Chris Jones' video in "The Order of Death".[25]

Actor/writer Harry Shearer (This is Spinal Tap, Saturday Night Live, The Simpsons), who has attended at least one Bohemian Club event, wrote and directed The Teddy Bears' Picnic, a parody of Bohemian Grove mock pagan pageantry and drunken revelry.[26]


Yeah.

You didn't add a list of the people who have been there.

[MarkMiller]

Yeah.

You didn't add a list of the people who have been there.
I was just adding the part about it being infiltrated.

It's an old Artist club that was taken over some many decades ago....not really a homosexual theme, but the rumors are spawned by the all male membership, the secrecy and......and I think a male porn star made some claim a few years back.

[Lou_Dobbs]

I was just adding the part about it being infiltrated.

It's an old Artist club that was taken over some many decades ago....not really a homosexual theme, but the rumors are spawned by the all male membership, the secrecy and......and I think a male porn star made some claim a few years back.

Yeah lol a gay porn star was invited to attend.

Was probably quite busy.

[kres24GT]

Hopefully one day 100% will understand the economy collapsed under our Big Government two party system, not individual politicians.

[Brian-W]

Bush has been gone for a year. Where are the jobs? The stimulus had to be signed in an "emergency" and no one was allowed to read it. The reasoning given for this was it meant to keep UE at 8% and immediately start creating jobs?

WTH happened?! This county is in the biggest mess in my lifetime.

Remember, Bush gave a stimulus as well.

What problems did it solve?

He also gave out bailout money, and other than more money for already wealthy people, what problems did THAT solve?

[Brian-W]

I don't think that's a Republican theme....as I understand it...this is a rumor never proved and included past Democrats.

I've known about the grove for some time. Alex Jones made a huge deal about it and claimed they were doing "mock" human scrifices. He even snuck into the place, which tells me that security is for shit, so there must not be much of anything going on there.

it's essentially just a big boys club.

Even Harry Schearer(Homer Simpson) is a member

[Moby]

Bush has been gone for a year. Where are the jobs? The stimulus had to be signed in an "emergency" and no one was allowed to read it. The reasoning given for this was it meant to keep UE at 8% and immediately start creating jobs?

WTH happened?! This county is in the biggest mess in my lifetime.
How long does it take to turn an economy this large around?

It took Reagan 2 years and he wasn't given a budget that was $1.2 trillion in debt. How long should it take Obama?

DO you really beleive that he can just wave a magic wand and have every thing change? What color are the unicorns in your world?

[Brian-W]

How long does it take to turn an economy this large around?

It took Reagan 2 years and he wasn't given a budget that was $1.2 trillion in debt. How long should it take Obama?

DO you really beleive that he can just wave a magic wand and have every thing change? What color are the unicorns in your world?

The 80's may have been a great time if you were part of the investment class.

But for a working person, the Reagan years were hell. Unless you were working for a defense contractor, there were no jobs in the 80's. Reagan turned this country into the biggest debtor nation on the planet.

[Moby]

The 80's may have been a great time if you were part of the investment class.

But for a working person, the Reagan years were hell. Unless you were working for a defense contractor, there were no jobs in the 80's. Reagan turned this country into the biggest debtor nation on the planet.
But he is the only Republican President in history to leave the country in better economic shape than when he started.

We had improvements in unemployment.
We had improvements in GDP growth.

Of course we also saw massive spending deficits.

The bottom line is Reagan is it. Measure ALL other Republican Presidents from the day they start until they day they leave and you'll see a pattern of massive economic destruction.

Nixon, Ford, Bush, Bush and you can go back even further and look. It's the same pattern over and over again. No improvements in fiscal conservatism like they claim and massive losses in jobs and growth.

[Brian-W]

But he is the only Republican President in history to leave the country in better economic shape than when he started..

You can say it all you like....doesn't make it true.

[MarkMiller]

You can say it all you like....doesn't make it true.
Wait....are you saying you don't believe that. It is actually true....at least from everything I have seen and read. Whether he was responsible for it or not, I can't say for sure.....but he began the presidency with an awful recession and left with relatively good economy. Now.....that is not the deficit but the overall shape of the economy. It may well have been so low it could do nothing but go up....hard to really say. There were some economic disaster under his watch as well but he was able to corporate interests to move as he wanted for some reason.get

[Independent Harry]

You can say it all you like....doesn't make it true.

We can tell you haven't done the research and looked at the numbers then...beacuse it is true.

[Brian-W]

We can tell you haven't done the research and looked at the numbers then...beacuse it is true.

well, I just know that prosperity was scarce in the area I lived. People on Wall Street loved the 80's though.

Mark makes a good point though. How do you know Reagan was responsible? Maybe it was Carter. I know this much, If Reagan had been president first and then things got better under the incoming DEM admin, then the conservatives would give Reagan the credit for the good news.

That's what they did to explain the prosperity during the Clinton years. They gave all the credit to Bush SR and said the prosperity was in spite of Clinton and not because of him.

[John Galt]

well, I just know that prosperity was scarce in the area I lived. People on Wall Street loved the 80's though.

Mark makes a good point though. How do you know Reagan was responsible? Maybe it was Carter. I know this much, If Reagan had been president first and then things got better under the incoming DEM admin, then the conservatives would give Reagan the credit for the good news.

That's what they did to explain the prosperity during the Clinton years. They gave all the credit to Bush SR and said the prosperity was in spite of Clinton and not because of him.
Funny how they all ignore the first S&L bailout after Raygun was done.

The economy appeared to be thriving, because it was all done on credit. Many "took the money and ran", and when the smoke cleared, the banks suffered.

Lest we forget the govt. selling off houses at about 10 cents on the dollar.

You made a valid point....my first mortgage was in the wake of Raygunonimcs...1989. My interest rate was 14%. If, as you say, you had money to invest back then, CD's were paying over 10%.

[CosmicRocker]

Like most Americans, I'm not interested in looking back.
All I care about is getting some substained GDP growth, "fixing" the housing market, and creating some decent jobs.

I've said this before - but I think it bears repeating.
The American ppl are not interested anymore in assigning blame to Bush -
nor saying Obama is ruining the coutry ( deficts, Health care).


Give us some tangible results. OUTCOMES
Obama was elected on "hope and Change" and if delivers,
the Dem's are gonna control Congress and the White House for a long period ( sucessful outcomes) with the shifting demographics favoring the Dems.

Fuck up. put us deeper in debt, stumble along in the economy, or make health care more expensive, and less available -
then the Dem's become as irrelevant as the Repubs are now.

The Dem's have a golden opportunity.
Controlling Congress and the White House.

Most Americans don't follow minutia politics like we do -
all they want is a repaired market.
Produce it, Bingo! You're a hero.
Fail - you're just another goat.
OUTCOMES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Brian-W]

Funny how they all ignore the first S&L bailout after Raygun was done..
That was Jimmy Carters fault


Many "took the money and ran", and when the smoke cleared, the banks suffered.he economy appeared to be thriving, because it was all done on credit. Funny how history repeats itself isn't it? As if having a nation of people in debt up to their eyeballs is a healthy economy.

Lest we forget the govt. selling off houses at about 10 cents on the dollar. Was ACORN around in those days? Maybe it was their fault.

You made a valid point....my first mortgage was in the wake of Raygunonimcs...1989. My interest rate was 14%. If, as you say, you had money to invest back then, CD's were paying over 10% Yeah, my father retired from the military in 82 and struggled until the day he died to pay off our mortgage @ a healthy 14% interest rate from some bloodsucking finance company. Too bad he wasn't a wall street mogul and he could have done better for our family.

[John Galt]

I've said this before - but I think it bears repeating.
The American ppl are not interested anymore in assigning blame to Bush -
nor saying Obama is ruining the coutry ( deficts, Health care).
Ultimately, I agree. Unfortunately, many people rely on what they see on t.v., or read in the papers. In which case, the minutia you mentioned, becomes overblown, and those who don't delve a little deeper are misinformed.


The Dem's have a golden opportunity.
Controlling Congress and the White House.
One would think....However...

The obstructionism cost the country over 2 months. Meanwhile, everyone is bogged down with the healthcare issue, and the thieves are back to their old tricks on Wall St.

The party of "no" is doing their collective best to bring the country down, for the sake of regaining power. This, while wearing American Flag pins on their $1000.00 suits.



Most Americans don't follow minutia politics like we do -
all they want is a repaired market.
Produce it, Bingo! You're a hero.
Fail - you're just another goat.
OUTCOMES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, it's going to take some serious partisan politicking...that which you hate...to achieve this. The repubs. simply will not stand by, and allow the dems. to look like the hero.

[kres24GT]

It's been a bipartisan effort at all level of governments to get where we are now, so funny all the sheep will try an blame each other while the politicians continue t steal form us and fuck us over. Threads like this is exactly what the politicians want. If you have voted for a single democrat or republican the past 10-15 years you are as responsible as anyone for what has happened int his country and the massive debt we are leaving to our children.

[John Galt]

It's been a bipartisan effort at all level of governments to get where we are now, so funny all the sheep will try an blame each other while the politicians continue t steal form us and fuck us over. Threads like this is exactly what the politicians want. If you have voted for a single democrat or republican the past 10-15 years you are as responsible as anyone for what has happened int his country and the massive debt we are leaving to our children.
Unfortunately, it comes down to voting for the party you hate the least.

The wealthy vote repub, even though they don't agree with the bloodshed, and corruption. I know a lot of really great people who are very wealthy. Until the last election, they voted repub. because their investments went through the roof, and their tax bracket remained comfortable.

[CosmicRocker]

[QUOTE]Ultimately, I agree. Unfortunately, many people rely on what they see on t.v., or read in the papers. In which case, the minutia you mentioned, becomes overblown, and those who don't delve a little deeper are misinformed.
so true, even my little running fued with Grayson shows that.
I basically agree with all of his votes, but Cable News broadcasts his
lunatic rantings, and that was the focus.

One would think....However...

The obstructionism cost the country over 2 months. Meanwhile, everyone is bogged down with the healthcare issue, and the thieves are back to their old tricks on Wall St.
Business as usual. I wouldn't be overly concerned over obstructionism, both parties do it, still plenty of time to get things done.
Historically the party of "out" always obstructs the party that's "in" agenda.

The party of "no" is doing their collective best to bring the country down, for the sake of regaining power. This, while wearing American Flag pins on their $1000.00 suits.
Like you quoted me as an answer from the Talking Heads: " same as it ever was"


Well, it's going to take some serious partisan politicking...that which you hate...to achieve this. The repubs. simply will not stand by, and allow the dems. to look like the hero.
I'm a little deeper than that. While I decry the COMPLETE inability of Congress
to actually debate, instead of preach to the opposition,
I fully understand power politics.
Do what you got elected to do, and the partisianship doesn't matter.
OUTCOMES, is what matter "In the Long Run" for Americans.

[CosmicRocker]

Unfortunately, it comes down to voting for the party you hate the least.
:lmao2:
can I flip a coin?

[kres24GT]

Unfortunately, it comes down to voting for the party you hate the least.

The wealthy vote repub, even though they don't agree with the bloodshed, and corruption. I know a lot of really great people who are very wealthy. Until the last election, they voted repub. because their investments went through the roof, and their tax bracket remained comfortable.


I don't vote for any Republicans or Democrats. The status quo doesn't work.

[John Galt]

I don't vote for any Republicans or Democrats. The status quo doesn't work.
That's similar to what I used to do....not vote at all.

Before 2000, those of us who were eligible, but chose not to vote, were in the majority in this country.

I'm not happy with many things that take place by both sides of the aisle. They both take huge amounts of cash, in exchange for policy decisions.

We won't see anything change, until we reform campaign finance once and for all.

[west milly tom]

It is sad that we are bound to side with the lesser of two evils.

I'm sure its been said before but I haven't seen it in this thread so: the real policy that blew up the market was the "its every American's right to own a home" policy. Its the same principle that makes the health care debate go round and round. The principle is flawed and has failed in multiple instances too numerous to list. Its not your right to have anything unless earned it.

[John Galt]

It is sad that we are bound to side with the lesser of two evils.

I'm sure its been said before but I haven't seen it in this thread so: the real policy that blew up the market was the "its every American's right to own a home" policy. Its the same principle that makes the health care debate go round and round. The principle is flawed and has failed in multiple instances too numerous to list. Its not your right to have anything unless earned it.
Everyone has the right to own anything that they can afford.

It isn't the philosophy that caused the meltdown. It was the abuse by those economics nerds that saw the opportunity to own 3 homes, with the profits they would make by writing/bundling/moving all of those toxic mortgages.

Once again, we see a viable concept that was abused by the wealthy, in order to get "more stuff".

[bairdi]

That's similar to what I used to do....not vote at all.

Before 2000, those of us who were eligible, but chose not to vote, were in the majority in this country.

I'm not happy with many things that take place by both sides of the aisle. They both take huge amounts of cash, in exchange for policy decisions.

We won't see anything change, until we reform campaign finance once and for all.
Whether a politician has a D or an R or any other letter after his name is irrelevant. What is important is where that politician's ideals are on the political spectrum. I do not see any type of acceptable argument out there that would dispel the fact that this country moved to the right and was basically controlled by conservatives for the past forty some years. I lay blame for the condition of this country at their feet. Unlike kres, I do not accept the premise that the size of the government is the problem but rather the philosophy that drives it. I would be quite content to support a FDR type of government that responds to the need of the majority of people. Kres, on the other, from what I perceive from his posts, prefers the type of pre-FDR government that existed in the early 1800's and produced the Robber Barons. Both positions are obtainable but are in opposition. I guess that is why it is called politics.

[west milly tom]

Everyone has the right to own anything that they can afford.




Enough said. its very convenient to vilify the rich if that makes it easier to ask for more government intervention. Stop making excuses for flawed policy and recognize it for what it was, a failure.

[Hog Trash]

the economy did crash under Bush. and we as republicans tried to spin it to our advantage and blame Obama for it.

Nobody cared that it happened while Bush was president
poeple were losing their houses and their retirement but we as Republicans and conservatives lied and used it for politicial gain

[John Galt]

Enough said. its very convenient to vilify the rich if that makes it easier to ask for more government intervention. Stop making excuses for flawed policy and recognize it for what it was, a failure.
Right...because we saw how successful the repeal of Glass Steagall was.

In less than 10 years, it caused another Wall St. crash.

You don't find it ironic that when the Dow is up, oil/gas prices go up? When the uncontrolled speculation was in full force, we saw almost $5.00/gallon gas.

This, while demand continued to drop. Talk about wealth redistribution.

[Boogie man]

Right...because we saw how successful the repeal of Glass Steagall was.

In less than 10 years, it caused another Wall St. crash.

You don't find it ironic that when the Dow is up, oil/gas prices go up? When the uncontrolled speculation was in full force, we saw almost $5.00/gallon gas.

This, while demand continued to drop. Talk about wealth redistribution.

The price of gas dropped to under 1.50 a gallon because of a dropping demand. Remember?

[John Galt]

The price of gas dropped to under 1.50 a gallon because of a dropping demand. Remember?
Election year...remember?

They put a stop to the speculation.

Check history...gas/oil always drops when there's a pres. election

Funny how that works

[Boogie man]

Election year...remember?

They put a stop to the speculation.

Check history...gas/oil always drops when there's a pres. election

Funny how that works

Wasn't the high price of gas in the same year?

[John Galt]

Wasn't the high price of gas in the same year?
It peaked in July/August.

[Brian-W]

It peaked in July/August.

Right, it began to drop in the month before the election.

Coincidence?