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View Full Version : "We Scared The Living Jesus Out of Them Every Time" - grim reading


Bill
07-10-2007, 11:28 PM
The article starts out being about the guilt the troops are feeling once they get back, but then tuirns into some grim reading.

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"Veterans said the culture of this counterinsurgency war, in which most Iraqi civilians were assumed to be hostile, made it difficult for soldiers to sympathize with their victims--at least until they returned home and had a chance to reflect.

"I guess while I was there, the general attitude was, A dead Iraqi is just another dead Iraqi," said Spc. Jeff Englehart, 26, of Grand Junction, Colorado. Specialist Englehart served with the Third Brigade, First Infantry Division, in Baquba, about thirty-five miles northeast of Baghdad, for a year beginning in February 2004. "You know, so what?... The soldiers honestly thought we were trying to help the people and they were mad because it was almost like a betrayal. Like here we are trying to help you, here I am, you know, thousands of miles away from home and my family, and I have to be here for a year and work every day on these missions. Well, we're trying to help you and you just turn around and try to kill us."

He said it was only "when they get home, in dealing with veteran issues and meeting other veterans, it seems like the guilt really takes place, takes root, then." "

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According to interviews with twenty-four veterans who participated in such raids, they are a relentless reality for Iraqis under occupation. The American forces, stymied by poor intelligence, invade neighborhoods where insurgents operate, bursting into homes in the hope of surprising fighters or finding weapons. But such catches, they said, are rare. Far more common were stories in which soldiers assaulted a home, destroyed property in their futile search and left terrorized civilians struggling to repair the damage and begin the long torment of trying to find family members who were hauled away as suspects.

Raids normally took place between midnight and 5 am, according to Sgt. John Bruhns, 29, of Philadelphia, who estimates that he took part in raids of nearly 1,000 Iraqi homes. He served in Baghdad and Abu Ghraib, a city infamous for its prison, located twenty miles west of the capital, with the Third Brigade, First Armored Division, First Battalion, for one year beginning in April 2003. His descriptions of raid procedures closely echoed those of eight other veterans who served in locations as diverse as Kirkuk, Samarra, Baghdad, Mosul and Tikrit.

"You want to catch them off guard," Sergeant Bruhns *ex*plained. "You want to catch them in their sleep." About ten troops were involved in each raid, he said, with five stationed outside and the rest searching the home.

Once they were in front of the home, troops wearing Kevlar helmets and flak vests with grenade launchers mounted on their weapons kicked the door in or used a sledgehammer to break it down, according to Sergeant Bruhns, who dispassionately described the procedure:

"You run in. And if there's lights, you turn them on--if the lights are working. If not, you've got flashlights.... You leave one rifle team outside while one rifle team goes inside. Each rifle team leader has a headset on with an earpiece and a microphone where he can communicate with the other rifle team leader that's outside.

"You go up the stairs. You grab the man of the house. You rip him out of bed in front of his wife. You put him up against the wall. You have junior-level troops, PFCs [privates first class], specialists will run into the other rooms and grab the family, and you'll group them all together. Then you go into a room and you tear the room to shreds and you make sure there's no weapons or anything that they can use to attack us.

"You get the interpreter and you get the man of the home, and you have him at gunpoint, and you'll ask the interpreter to ask him: 'Do you have any weapons? Do you have any anti-US propaganda, anything at all--anything--anything in here that would lead us to believe that you are somehow involved in insurgent activity or anti-coalition forces activity?'

"Normally they'll say no, because that's normally the truth," Sergeant Bruhns said. "So what you'll do is you'll take his sofa cushions and you'll dump them. If he has a couch, you'll turn the couch upside down. You'll go into the fridge, if he has a fridge, and you'll throw everything on the floor, and you'll take his drawers and you'll dump them.... You'll open up his closet and you'll throw all the clothes on the floor and basically leave his house looking like a hurricane just hit it.

"And if you find something, then you'll detain him. If not, you'll say, 'Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening.' So you've just humiliated this man in front of his entire family and terrorized his entire family and you've destroyed his home. And then you go right next door and you do the same thing in a hundred homes."

Each raid, or "cordon and search" operation, as they are sometimes called, involved five to twenty homes, he said. Following a spate of attacks on soldiers in a particular area, commanders would normally order infantrymen on raids to look for weapons caches, ammunition or materials for making IEDs. Each Iraqi family was allowed to keep one AK-47 at home, but, according to Bruhns, those found with extra weapons were arrested and detained and the operation classified a "success," even if it was clear that no one in the home was an insurgent.

Before a raid, according to descriptions by several veterans, soldiers typically "quarantined" the area by barring anyone from coming in or leaving. In pre-raid briefings, Sergeant Bruhns said, military commanders often told their troops the neighborhood they were ordered to raid was "a hostile area with a high level of insurgency" and that it had been taken over by former Baathists or Al Qaeda terrorists.

"So you have all these troops, and they're all wound up," said Sergeant Bruhns. "And a lot of these troops think once they kick down the door there's going to be people on the inside waiting for them with weapons to start shooting at them."

Sgt. Dustin Flatt, 33, of Denver, estimates he raided "thousands" of homes in Tikrit, Samarra and Mosul. He served with the Eighteenth Infantry Brigade, First Infantry Division, for one year beginning in February 2004. "We scared the living Jesus out of them every time we went through every house," he said.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20070730&s=hedges

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kres24GT
07-11-2007, 09:30 AM
War ain't pretty, it's just a fact of life. Luckily I never had to kill anyone while in Iraq.

Bill
07-11-2007, 03:38 PM
That's a pointless comment Kres, and I expected a larger perspective from you. Altho I recognize that a foot soldiers perspective is more likely, given your background.

Remember, this is a political war, not a war to the knife.

What good does it do the US to lose the political war?

Whoever decided on this strategy is an idiot.

kres24GT
07-11-2007, 03:56 PM
That's a pointless comment Kres, and I expected a larger perspective from you. Altho I recognize that a foot soldiers perspective is more likely, given your background.

Remember, this is a political war, not a war to the knife.

What good does it do the US to lose the political war?

Whoever decided on this strategy is an idiot.


War is war to the soldiers, marines, and sailors. They aren't killing Iraqis and going through the political debate in their minds as they do it, not 99% of them anyway.

Anyway I see no connection between the psyche of troops on the battleground and the politics of the conflict.

Bill
07-11-2007, 04:49 PM
So you don't care about the war at all?

You would prefer that it be an even more costly disaster than it already is?

You like the idea that the US is losing?

Betty Blowtorch
07-11-2007, 05:02 PM
"Sorry to disturb you. Have a nice evening."

"So you've just humiliated this man in front of his entire family
and terrorized his entire family and you've destroyed his home.

And then you go right next door and you do the same thing
in a hundred homes."
Thanks, Bill. Excellent article.

It's very interesting the word this soldier used to describe
what he and his fellow soldiers did to those hundreds of
Iraqi families:

"Terrorized"

To millions of innocent Iraqis, American soldiers are perceived
as terrorists, not liberators. That whole "liberator bullshit" is
just a phony pretext intended to fool the Bush-licking yokels
in Dumbfuckistan.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6315/dumbfuckistanec8.gif

Isn't it wonderful that our soldiers are verbally polite
after they've violently ripped apart a family's home
and terrorized the occupants?

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/7379/iraqladyskullvl7.jpg
"Sorry to disturb you, ma'am.
Y'all have a nice evening."

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9302/bushnaziresizesmallerlr2.png

Every time American troops terrorize innocent Iraqis,
they only succeed in creating more anti-American
insurgents hell-bent on vengeance.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1452/insurgentbombyt1.jpg
Sorry to disturb you.
Have a nice evening.

Betty Blowtorch
07-11-2007, 05:08 PM
War ain't pretty, it's just a fact of life.
Luckily I never had to kill anyone while in Iraq.
OK, Kres, we're well aware of the fact that you fought
for Bush and Cheney and their war on the Iraqi people,
but I just have two questions for you:

1) Did you vote for Bush and Cheney in 2000?

2) Did you vote for Bush and Cheney in 2004?

Bill
07-11-2007, 05:17 PM
People think that because I don't want to fellate big business and republican theives, that I'm a purebred liberal. They couldn't be more wrong.

Thing is, I _want_ the US to sucessfully steal the Iraqi oil, because my real issue is the end of the oil age, and if we steal the Iraqi oil, then the vast desolation of the end of the oil age will probably happen after I'm dead.

I want the war to succeed, even tho I think it was the stupidest war the american empire ever got stuck in.

If we do search, roust, and terrorize operations, all we do is guarantee that the Iraqis will hate us even more than they do now. It guarantees that we will lose the political war, and then china gets the oil, and crushes the US before the end of this century.

In order to get the oil, we have to have a permenent military presence in Iraq. If we aren't right there, quarding the oil fields and holding a gun to the iraq government, the very first minute we leave the iraqis will repudiate the oil laws, kick out the american corporations, and invite in the chinese.

It will be Iraq's Perfect Revenge.

So, we want the Iraqis to accept our presence, and to tolerate us, not hate us with a hate that burns like the fires of hell.

Grunts like Kres and fake militarists like most of the red states salivate over degraded iraqis and secretly admire the foot soldiers dragging old iraqi ladies out of their beds at 4am.

They are not smart enough to realize that these tactics are the desperate tactics of an army that is losing - they apparently don't know enough about guerilla war to know that when the oppressive reprisal rousts start, that's when the guerillas have won.

They cheer to hear about dead iraqis and raiding homes, unaware that it means the war is lost, and that stupid soldiers have lost it.

Kinky Jones
07-11-2007, 05:19 PM
OK, Kres, we're well aware of the fact that you fought
for Bush and Cheney and their war on the Iraqi people,
but

kres fought for the U.S. and the U.S. fucked him, he didn't fight for dubya or any other politician, just my 2 cents on the subject, none of our troops are doing their duty for politicians

kres24GT
07-11-2007, 06:58 PM
So you don't care about the war at all?

You would prefer that it be an even more costly disaster than it already is?

You like the idea that the US is losing?



Of course not, the war is failure. I'm not sure pulling out is the best idea, not sure it isn't a good idea either. The best would have been to never have gone, too late for that. And maybe the fact I only served during the major combat operations and left before the nation building began biases my opinion, but I stand by the fact most of the soldiers don't care about the politics. They want to do their job and go home, or they just want to go home. Either way, the politics don't play a very big factor in the psyche of the troops.

kres24GT
07-11-2007, 07:00 PM
OK, Kres, we're well aware of the fact that you fought
for Bush and Cheney and their war on the Iraqi people,
but I just have two questions for you:

1) Did you vote for Bush and Cheney in 2000?

2) Did you vote for Bush and Cheney in 2004?


I didn't vote in 2000. In 2004 I voted for Badnarik. Why does it matter? My point is troops in battle aren't thinking about the politics when they are fighting battles. They are a little more focused on not getting killed.

kres24GT
07-11-2007, 07:02 PM
kres fought for the U.S. and the U.S. fucked him, he didn't fight for dubya or any other politician, just my 2 cents on the subject, none of our troops are doing their duty for politicians


I wasn't much of a fighter. I was in Logistics and Supply with the ammunition. I never saw any shots fired except some missiles flying over head.

But you are correct, despite not wanting to be there, the politics of the situation were the least of my concern. I just wanted to get the job done so I could go home. Who I would vote for in 2004 never crossed my mind, at least not until i got home.

kres24GT
07-11-2007, 07:04 PM
Most of you have obviously never served in a combat zone, either that are you are way too political. Not a shot, just an observation.

Kinky Jones
07-12-2007, 12:44 AM
I wasn't much of a fighter. I was in Logistics and Supply with the ammunition. I never saw any shots fired except some missiles flying over head.

But you are correct, despite not wanting to be there, the politics of the situation were the least of my concern. I just wanted to get the job done so I could go home. Who I would vote for in 2004 never crossed my mind, at least not until i got home.


well you signed up and did your time the same as everybody else sent over there, doesn't really matter the job you do the only safe place during the Iraq war was outside of Iraq and you put your life on the line serving your country... people should be thanking you or at least respecting you, not jumping all over you but tensions can run real high for those of us that care enough to pay attention to politics, your original statement might sound a bit selfish until you think of it from your perspective, I would be more worried if you woulda said "i wish i coulda killed some Iraqis while i was there"

Kinky Jones
07-12-2007, 01:10 AM
People think that because I don't want to fellate big business and republican theives, that I'm a purebred liberal. They couldn't be more wrong.

Thing is, I _want_ the US to sucessfully steal the Iraqi oil, because my real issue is the end of the oil age, and if we steal the Iraqi oil, then the vast desolation of the end of the oil age will probably happen after I'm dead.

I want the war to succeed, even tho I think it was the stupidest war the american empire ever got stuck in.

If we do search, roust, and terrorize operations, all we do is guarantee that the Iraqis will hate us even more than they do now. It guarantees that we will lose the political war, and then china gets the oil, and crushes the US before the end of this century.

In order to get the oil, we have to have a permenent military presence in Iraq. If we aren't right there, quarding the oil fields and holding a gun to the iraq government, the very first minute we leave the iraqis will repudiate the oil laws, kick out the american corporations, and invite in the chinese.

It will be Iraq's Perfect Revenge.

So, we want the Iraqis to accept our presence, and to tolerate us, not hate us with a hate that burns like the fires of hell.

Grunts like Kres and fake militarists like most of the red states salivate over degraded iraqis and secretly admire the foot soldiers dragging old iraqi ladies out of their beds at 4am.

They are not smart enough to realize that these tactics are the desperate tactics of an army that is losing - they apparently don't know enough about guerilla war to know that when the oppressive reprisal rousts start, that's when the guerillas have won.

They cheer to hear about dead iraqis and raiding homes, unaware that it means the war is lost, and that stupid soldiers have lost it.


you are starting to sound like you have Vietnam syndrome Bill, hate the grunts on the ground because you don't agree with the idiot politicians who sent them there... our troops are trained to follow orders and not ask questions, they aren't all sitting over there wanting to hurt Iraqis, a small percentage of bad apples has given our troops a bad image even with US citizens... it isn't hard to get angry when you see the troops over there say stuff like "if you don't support my mission don't support me" but our military is just like the general population it takes a lot of time for them to come around... the politicians, and starting with the military politicians, the yes men that dubya replaced all the commanders that were telling the truth with are the ones to blame, our men and women just wanna come home at this point...

and I would say that as stupid this war has been run and the more than obvious blunders that are gonna cause lots of "blowback" that trying to "steal the oil" while the entire planet is watching and already hating us is the easiest way to fuck ourselves even more, oil is strategic but it is one strategy and certainly not the best one we have, and if it is our only one then we are fucked anyways so...

and why exactly is the oil so strategic, i know you've done alot of reading on it but from what i gather oil = money and not the future of the US, we will burn it up so fast it isn't even funny, and the American War Machine is running on nuke power and diesel nowadays, i would think investing in bio-diesel and other diesel alternatives would be much more productive than hoarding oil and waiting for it to run out before we find another means of fuel