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Bill Cosby
10-16-2009, 11:14 AM
Happy Columbus Day
Columbus sailed the ocean blue in Fourteen Hundred and Ninety Two...
May the spirit of adventure and discovery always be with you.
Wishing you a great Columbus Day
-- Columbus Day greeting card
(http://socialistworker.org/2009/10/15/celebration-of-mass-murder)

http://www.umich.edu/~ltpao/dogf.gif

http://www.americanindiansource.com/clip_image00210.jpg


An 1893 rendition of Christopher Columbus arriving in the AmericasAn 1893 rendition of Christopher Columbus arriving in the Americas

TO MARK Columbus Day In 2004, the Medieval and Renaissance Center at UCLA published the final volume of a compendium of Columbus-era documents. Its general editor, Geoffrey Symcox, leaves little room for ambivalence when he says:

This is not your grandfather's Columbus...While giving the brilliant mariner his due, the collection portrays Columbus as an unrelenting social climber and self-promoter who stopped at nothing--not even exploitation, slavery, or twisting biblical scripture--to advance his ambitions...

Many of the unflattering documents have been known for the last century or more, but nobody paid much attention to them until recently. The fact that Columbus brought slavery, enormous exploitation or devastating diseases to the Americas used to be seen as a minor detail--if it was recognized at all--in light of his role as the great bringer of white man's civilization to the benighted idolatrous American continent. But to historians today this information is very important. It changes our whole view of the enterprise.

But does it?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"THEY...BROUGHT us parrots and balls of cotton and spears and many other things, which they exchanged for the glass beads and hawks' bells," Christopher Columbus wrote in his logbook in 1495. "They willingly traded everything they owned...They were well-built, with good bodies and handsome features...They do not bear arms, and do not know them, for I showed them a sword, they took it by the edge and cut themselves out of ignorance. They have no iron. Their spears are made of cane...

"They would make fine servants...With fifty men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want. Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold."

Catholic priest Bartolome de las Casas, in the multi-volume "History of the Indies" published in 1875, wrote, "Slaves were the primary source of income for the Admiral [Columbus], with that income, he intended to repay the money the Kings were spending in support of Spaniards on the Island. They provide profit and income to the Kings. [The Spaniards were driven by] insatiable greed...killing, terrorizing, afflicting, and torturing the native peoples...with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty."

This systematic violence was aimed at preventing "Indians from daring to think of themselves as human beings. [The Spaniards] thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades...My eyes have seen these acts so foreign to human nature, and now I tremble as I write."

Father Fray Antonio de Montesino, a Dominican preacher, in December 1511 said this in a sermon that implicated Christopher Columbus and the colonists in the genocide of the native peoples:

Tell me by what right of justice do you hold these Indians in such a cruel and horrible servitude? On what authority have you waged such detestable wars against these people who dealt quietly and peacefully on their own lands? Wars in which you have destroyed such an infinite number of them by homicides and slaughters never heard of before.

In 1892, the National Council of Churches, the largest ecumenical body in the United States, is known to have exhorted Christians to refrain from celebrating the Columbus quincentennial, saying, "What represented newness of freedom, hope, and opportunity for some was the occasion for oppression, degradation and genocide for others."

Yet America continues to celebrate "Columbus Day."

That Americans do so in the face of all evidence that there is little in the Columbian legacy that merits applause makes it easier for them to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions, or the actions of their government. Perhaps there is good reason.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

IN "COLUMBUS Day: A Clash of Myth and History," journalist and media critic Norman Solomon discusses how historians who deal with recorded evidence are frequently depicted as "politically correct" revisionists, while the general populace is manipulated into holding onto myths that brazenly applaud inconceivable acts of violence of men against fellow humans.

For those of us who are willing to ask how it becomes possible to manipulate the population of a country into accepting atrocity, the answer is not hard to find. It requires normalizing the inconceivable and drumming it in via the socio-cultural environment, until it is internalized and embedded in the individual and collective consciousness.

The combined or singular deployment of the media, the entertainment industry, mainstream education or any other agency, can achieve the desired result of convincing people that wars can be just, and strikes can be surgical, as long as it is the U.S. that is doing it.

Never has this process been as blatant and overt as in recent years when the time has come for America to legitimize the idea of global domination. A Department of Defense report titled Joint Vision 2020 calls for the U.S. military to be capable of "full spectrum dominance" of the entire planet. That means total domination and control of all land, sea, air, space and information.

That's a lot of control.

How might this become accepted as "Policy" and remain unquestioned by almost an entire population?

The one word key to that is: Myths. The explanation is that the myths the United States is built upon have paved the way for the perpetuation of all manner of violations.

Among the first of these is that of Christopher Columbus. In school, we were taught of his bravery, courage and perseverance. In a speech in 1989, George H.W. Bush proclaimed: "Christopher Columbus not only opened the door to a New World, but also set an example for us all by showing what monumental feats can be accomplished through perseverance and faith."

Never mind that the monumental feats mainly comprised part butchery, part exploitation and the largest part betrayal of host populations of the "New World."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

ON THEIR second arrival in Hispaniola, Haiti, Columbus's crew took captive roughly 2,000 local villagers who had arrived to greet them. Miguel Cuneo, a literate crew member, wrote, "When our caravels...were to leave for Spain, we gathered...one thousand six hundred male and female persons of those Indians, and these we embarked in our caravels on February 17, 1495...For those who remained, we let it be known [to the Spaniards who manned the island's fort] in the vicinity that anyone who wanted to take some of them could do so, to the amount desired, which was done."

In 1500, Columbus wrote to a friend, "A hundred castellanoes [a Spanish coin] are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general, and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten (years old) are now in demand."

Such original "monumental feats" as were accomplished by our nation's heroes and role models were somewhat primitive. Local inhabitants who resisted Columbus and his crew had their ears or nose cut off, were attacked by dogs, skewered with pikes and shot. Reprisals were so severe that many of the natives committed mass suicide, and women began practicing abortions in order not to leave children enslaved. The population of Haiti at the time of Columbus's arrival was between 1.5 million and 3 million. Sixty years later, every single native had been murdered.

Today, "perseverance and faith" allow us to accomplish much more, and with far greater impunity. The U.S. continues to liberate Iraq and Afghanistan with 2,000-pound bombs in civilian areas and purge Pakistan via drone attacks on weddings.

Neither case is of isolated whimsy. It was and remains policy.

In A People's History of the United States, celebrated historian Howard Zinn describes how Arawak men and women emerged from their villages to greet their guests with food, water and gifts when Columbus landed at the Bahamas. But Columbus wanted something else. "Gold is most excellent; gold constitutes treasure; and he who has it does all he wants in the world, and can even lift souls up to Paradise," he wrote to the king and queen of Spain in 1503.

Rather than gold, however, Columbus only found slaves when he arrived on his second visit with 17 ships and over 1,200 men. Ravaging various Caribbean islands, Columbus took natives as captives as he sailed. Of these, he picked 500 of the best specimens and shipped them back to Spain. Two hundred of these died en route, while the survivors were put up for sale by the archdeacon of the town where they landed.

Columbus needed more than mere slaves to sell, and Zinn's account informs us:

[D]esperate to pay back dividends to those who had invested, [he] had to make good his promise to fill the ships with gold. In the province of Cicao on Haiti, where he and his men imagined huge gold fields to exist, they ordered all persons fourteen years or older to collect a certain quantity of gold every three months. When they brought it, they were given copper tokens to hang around their necks. Indians found without a copper token had their hands cut off and bled to death.

The Indians had been given an impossible task. The only gold around was bits of dust garnered from the streams. So they fled, were hunted down with dogs, and were killed.

As a younger priest, the aforementioned De las Casas had participated in the conquest of Cuba and owned a plantation where natives worked as slaves before he found his conscience and gave it up. His first-person accounts reveal that the Spaniards:

thought nothing of knifing Indians by tens and twenties, and of cutting slices off them to test the sharpness of their blades. They forced their way into native settlements, slaughtering everyone they found there, including small children, old men, pregnant women, and even women who had just given birth.

They hacked them to pieces, slicing open their bellies with their swords as though they were sheep herded into a pen. They even laid wagers on whether they could manage to slice a man in two at a stroke, or cut an individual's head from his body, or disembowel him with a single blow of their axes. They grabbed suckling infants by the feet and, ripping them from their mothers' breasts, dashed them headlong against the rocks. Others, laughing and joking all the while, threw them over their shoulders into a river, shouting: "Wriggle, you litle perisher." They slaughtered anyone on their path.

In a letter to the Spanish court dated February 15, 1492, Columbus presented his version of full-spectrum dominance: "To conquer the world, spread the Christian faith and regain the Holy Land and the Temple Mount."

With this radical ideology, Las Casas records, "They spared no one, erecting especially wide gibbets on which they could string their victims up with their feet just off the ground, and then burned them alive, thirteen at a time, in honor of our Savior and the twelve Apostles."

About incorporating these accounts in his book, Zinn explained to Truthout:

My point is not to grieve for the victims and denounce the executioners. Those tears, that anger, cast into the past, deplete our moral energy for the present...but I do remember a statement I once read: The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you don't listen to it, you will never know what justice is.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

AUTHOR AND journalist Chris Hedges believes that glorification of (the atrocities of) Columbus is one of several myths that sustain the illusions that justify the imperial visions of the United States.

In conversation with Truthout, he said, "It's really easy to build a Holocaust museum that condemns Germans. It's another issue to build a museum that confronts our own genocide, the genocide that was perpetrated by our own ancestors towards Native Americans or towards African-Americans.

"I am all for documenting and remembering the [World War II] Holocaust, but the disparity between the reality of the [World War II] Holocaust or the reality of the genocide as illustrated in the [World War II] Holocaust museum and the utter historical amnesia in the Native American museum in Washington is really frightening and shows a complete inability in a public arena for us to examine who we are and what we've done."

Noam Chomsky holds a similar view. "We have [World War II] Holocaust museums all over the place about what the Germans did," Chomsky told Truthout. "Do we have one about what we did? I mean about slavery, about the Native American population?

"It's not that the people involved didn't know about it. John Quincy Adams, a great grand strategist, who had a major role in these atrocities, in his later years when he reflected on them, referred to that hapless race of North Americans, which we are exterminating with such insidious cruelty. They knew exactly what they were doing. But it doesn't matter. It's us."

Explaining how the mythology of a country becomes its historic reality, Chomsky stated, "If you are well-educated, you can internalize that and it. That's part of what a good education is about, enabling people to live with those contradictions. And you see it very consistently. In the case of, say, the Iraq war, try to find somebody who had a principled objection. Actually you can, occasionally, but it's suppressed."

Historical revisionism and amnesia are critical for nation-building, opines Paul Woodward, the writer and author of the blog War In Context. He elaborates:

Every nation is subject to its own particular form of historical amnesia. Likewise, imperial powers have their own grandiose revisionist tendencies. Yet there is another form of historical denial particular to recently invented nations whose myth-making efforts are inextricably bound together with the process of the nation's birth...

Whereas older nations are, by and large, populated by people whose ancestral roots penetrated that land well before it took on the clear definition of a nation state, the majority of the people in an invented nation--such as the United States or Israel'--have ancestry that inevitably leads elsewhere. This exposes the ephemeral link between the peoples' history and the nation's history.

Add to that the fact that such nations came into being through grotesque acts of dispossession, and it is clear that a psychological drive to hold aloft an atemporal exceptionalism becomes an existential necessity. National security requires that the past be erased.

Robert Jensen is an author and teaches media law, ethics and politics at the University of Texas. In an essay where he justifies his decision to not celebrate Thanksgiving as a holiday, he says:

Imagine that Germany won World War II and that a Nazi regime endured for some decades, eventually giving way to a more liberal state with a softer version of German-supremacist ideology. Imagine that a century later Germans celebrated a holiday offering a whitewashed version of German/Jewish history that ignored that holocaust and the deep anti-Semitism of the culture. Imagine that the holiday provided a welcomed time for families and friends to gather and enjoy food and conversation. Imagine that businesses, schools and government offices closed on this day.

What would we say about such a holiday? Would we not question the distortions woven into such a celebration? Would we not demand a more accurate historical account? Would we not, in fact, denounce such a holiday as grotesque?

Of course we would.

But our story is different, and once again this year, on October 12, we will once again "Hail Columbus."

Bhaswati Sengupta contributed to this report.


[IMG]http://www.salvationinc.org/archives/Genocide.sized.jpg[/IMG]

disrupter
10-16-2009, 08:08 PM
He may have been a bastard,

but without him our ancestors wouldn't have know there was land here they could steal from a bunch of low tech-ers.

Beware of aliens bearing gifts, eh? lol

Bill Cosby
10-17-2009, 01:36 AM
I will give him some credit for his seamanship… That is about it……..

Personally I think it would have been found-->>>> Just by someone else….

Perhaps a nice Portuguese sailor- of much better character or some other Italian or Dutchman..

Mr, gone
10-17-2009, 02:40 AM
Throw it on the calendar and americans will celebrate. Ignorance is bliss for these masses...

Southernman
10-17-2009, 03:24 AM
If you liberal "anti-white europeans" , "anti-American", "anti-anything white" whiners hate Columbus day, you're really going to be pissed on Thanksgiving day..:lmao2:
BUHAHA

Bill Cosby
10-17-2009, 12:05 PM
If you liberal "anti-white europeans" , "anti-American", "anti-anything white" whiners hate Columbus day, you're really going to be pissed on Thanksgiving day..:lmao2:
BUHAHA

Why are you gonna tell us next that the pilgrams ate the indians after???

You wanna be the resident redneck that is fine but you better come better than this......... These here liberals will have your nuts in a jar next to their keyboard............ :thumbsup:

ROdger Right
10-17-2009, 01:27 PM
Why are you gonna tell us next that the pilgrams ate the indians after???

You wanna be the resident redneck that is fine but you better come better than this......... These here liberals will have your nuts in a jar next to their keyboard............ :thumbsup:

So you wanna come in and trash holdiadays?

He puinished his people as well as the indians so I dont see where any animosity could come from.

Bill Cosby
10-17-2009, 01:47 PM
Yea I see yor point there Rog..............

It is like saying your dad beat your mom & sister so it is ok that he beats your ass to..........

Yea kinda like that..........:thumbsup:

:(

MarkMiller
10-17-2009, 03:28 PM
He may have been a bastard,

but without him our ancestors wouldn't have know there was land here they could steal from a bunch of low tech-ers.

Beware of aliens bearing gifts, eh? lol
Tell that to Amerigo Vespucci, The vikings, the Knights Templar and even the Chinese....who made it to America as well. The Spanish plundered the new world and perhaps India was lucky there was a continent to block them.

ROdger Right
10-17-2009, 04:57 PM
Yea I see yor point there Rog..............

It is like saying your dad beat your mom & sister so it is ok that he beats your ass to..........

Yea kinda like that..........:thumbsup:

:(

Youact as if the camps he left behind wearnt destoryed.

Bill Cosby
10-17-2009, 05:46 PM
Youact as if the camps he left behind wearnt destoryed.


When you wanna write in uncrackhead Englu'sh I will try & read it...

MarkMiller
10-17-2009, 06:38 PM
When you wanna write in uncrackhead Englu'sh I will try & read it...
:lmao2: !!!!

disrupter
10-17-2009, 10:50 PM
Shut the fuck up Southernman.

MarkMiller, but it was Columbus who made it explicitly clear & implicitly available for colonization &/or occupation. His intention was to find new trading lands [incidentally] for Spain. It was more about territory & acquisition, not just discovery.

I will not paper over my animal needs & inclinations. I may try to contain them a bit for some modicum of civility, but intellectual integrity [logic] will no let me deny their existence or function.

MarkMiller
10-17-2009, 11:19 PM
Shut the fuck up Southernman.

MarkMiller, but it was Columbus who made it explicitly clear & implicitly available for colonization &/or occupation. His intention was to find new trading lands [incidentally] for Spain. It was more about territory & acquisition, not just discovery.

I will not paper over my animal needs & inclinations. I may try to contain them a bit for some modicum of civility, but intellectual integrity [logic] will no let me deny their existence or function.
Not really. Columbus did not actually discover America first of all, nor did he even believe so. He was looking for a trade rout to the East Asia and had died believing that was what it was.

There is documentation the the British in fact had already been traveling to the Americas and...well that actually makes some sense. They even have a theory that overrides the Amerigo idea.

disrupter
10-17-2009, 11:25 PM
No i know he wasn't the first or second or . . . to 'discover' it,

but he ran across it with the INTENT of commercial gain.
With the Intent of gaining territory &/or trade partners.

He also did it for a nation, Spain, with exactly that intent in mind.

He was claiming territory for Spain.

And we can all tap dance around about sweetness & light,
but that isn't where the rubber hits the road.

Which is why liberals who actually support their civil freedoms should also support the 2nd amendment & if reasonable for their circumstances buy & possess a firearm(s).

disrupter
10-17-2009, 11:28 PM
In American we have civil liberties not despite keeping & bearing arms,

but precisely because we did [& many still do] keep & bear arms.

there would have been no other way to create an organized society than a populist group, because if people disagreed they would have just shot your ass & fed you to the pigs.

The reason they had the Magna Carta in England is because people got up in arms & fought for it.
The [more limited] civil liberties of England are there because [those accursed, indignant, ungrateful (teasing)] people fought & died for them.

Civil liberties do not happen in some perfumed vacuum.
They are demanded, expected & required of hard working, savvy people who simply won't put up with anything less.

disrupter
10-17-2009, 11:35 PM
Since there is no God showing for now, you may as well fill in until the real thing comes along,

& if you are worth your salt, there will be a full fledged firefight when that time comes. lol.

Bill Cosby
10-18-2009, 12:50 AM
Not really. Columbus did not actually discover America first of all, nor did he even believe so. He was looking for a trade rout to the East Asia and had died believing that was what it was.

There is documentation the the British in fact had already been traveling to the Americas and...well that actually makes some sense. They even have a theory that overrides the Amerigo idea.

Yep........... He went to his grave believing he enslaved, killed & tortured all those poor "Indians" cause they deserved it, cause he discovered India....... :disbelief:

I am pretty impressed w/ your recent history lessons……….:banana: :yay: :flowers:

Bill Cosby
10-18-2009, 12:54 AM
No i know he wasn't the first or second or . . . to 'discover' it,

but he ran across it with the INTENT of commercial gain.
With the Intent of gaining territory &/or trade partners.

He also did it for a nation, Spain, with exactly that intent in mind.

He was claiming territory for Spain.
.

Yep...........

What was right for the crown of Spain was=right..........

Genocide, slavery, whatever= $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ It's all good....

Gee I wonder why them ppl hate them xristianZ

MarkMiller
10-18-2009, 01:23 AM
No i know he wasn't the first or second or . . . to 'discover' it,

but he ran across it with the INTENT of commercial gain.
With the Intent of gaining territory &/or trade partners.

He also did it for a nation, Spain, with exactly that intent in mind.

He was claiming territory for Spain.

And we can all tap dance around about sweetness & light,
but that isn't where the rubber hits the road.

Which is why liberals who actually support their civil freedoms should also support the 2nd amendment & if reasonable for their circumstances buy & possess a firearm(s).
That's what conquerors do....or did you just forget about the Aztecs, Incas and the Mayans. The Spanish wiped out entire civilizations.

I heard that some people were protesting Italians because of Columbus day because of the atrocities....but it was the spanish that did those things.

disrupter
10-18-2009, 09:34 AM
We need to examine the mechanics of what went on.

Certainly the American Indians did not 'deserve' [moralistically/ethically] virtually all of what happened,
but we DO have to recognize the FACTs that caused or allowed things to happen.

We must take the technocratic, analytic viewpoint, for our own self interests.

But the invaders had technological advances, probably supported by an easy, superfluous agricultural production. [see "Guns, Germs & Steel"]
The indigenous residents [immigrants from tens of thousands of years ago themselves; the technology of mobility/migration] did not have our implements, nor the understanding of how they worked.

Many Indian groups were quite civilized & peaceable & what happened to them is an atrocity,
In other cases the fact that we were fighting one indian group who was a traditional enemy of another & they foolishly threw in with us/the white invaders & were used against one another.

So i hope the tendency to pull together against a common outsider foe is stronger in humanity, than our inter-human rivalries.

This is a brilliant argument for a society(ies) to be as technologically advanced & well defended as possible, because challenge can come from completely unexpected quarters.

I will throw something you will almost certainly reject,
but government denial of Alien/UFO/paranormal activities leaves us vulnerable to unknown elements of unknown characteristics.
So far it all seems quite ephemeral, & perhaps it is currently not substantive [although governments including the US are not trustworthy], but at some point something may appear that IS substantive, & we need to have at least considered & have some preparations made.

It is better to learn from other people's mistakes,
then to have them 'learn' from your/our [near] fatal ones, eh.:thumbsup:

Bill Cosby
10-18-2009, 03:54 PM
We must take the technocratic, analytic viewpoint, for our own self interests.

Sorry but I totally disagree........... I will never do that again.........

They butchered & murdered women & children.... That is inexcusable IMO...

They cheated men out of their lands............

They took what did not belong to them & gave their victims little or no recourse but to fight back w/ violence........

They demonized & hunted whole families & tribes to extinction...........

That can not be justified or rationalized in any way.........

& what is perhaps even worse is they set an example for others to go on their own genocidal adventures...

Brian-W
10-18-2009, 07:50 PM
Hola Bill :thumbsup:

T-Cat
10-18-2009, 08:11 PM
Hola Bill :thumbsup:Nice ..... tattoo.

Bill Cosby
10-18-2009, 08:29 PM
Hola Bill

HeY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana: :yay: :happy: :bowdown:

Glad you made it...... lol

You prob know about everyone already........

have fun.........

mtz
10-19-2009, 01:47 AM
Holy atrocities, Batman!

Some really sobering Shiit, Dr. Huxtable...

That said, I'm proud to be an American!!

We can't blame America for what the Spanish did almost 300 years before our founding in Central America, no less.

and while we can't deny over 80 years of slavery after our founding (as well as about 200 years of colonial slavery beforehand), our Country, albeit at times has far too slowly, yet consistently worked towards making the words 'All men are created equal" more of a reality.

If what you wrote is entirely accurate, then Columbus was a 'Psuedo Christian Ideologist', and far from a Christian.

As a conservative, I'll be the first to stand in line to find a new holiday!!

disrupter
10-19-2009, 09:11 AM
The past is the past.

The only useful, ethical thing we can derive from the past is learning.

I won't lie & say we can't extract [generate?] some vitriol, but if that is all we do then we just cripple ourselves & almost certainly we are blind to our own potential atrocities.

We can only mind the store on our watch.

Our actions speak of us. Mindlessly condemning the actions of historic & anonymous ancestory just suggests we have weak minds & no intellectually, organically good reason for our own actions. We may covertly just want to be hiding from what we are doing or not doing.

If you want to tell me it was wrong, tell me why it was wrong. Give me a mechanically credible reason. Hell, just make one up if it sounds good. [And making things up is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes the confabulated construct may hold weighty merit.]
Otherwise you condemn your position to wishful thinking.

If one truly cares about American Indians more than one's own vitriol joyride [& yes, i am certainly guilty of my own charging]
then look at the ongoing abuses being inflicted upon them by the US interior department. Appropriating even more land, disallowing them sovereign independent actions & other abuses.
They are our human brothers [family] & part of the asset of our collective human genepool.
They are our fellow co-habitating Americans.

Talk about now, where something might be improved rather than save all your energy for easy condemnation of long dead corpses. [& yeah i am sure i do it too. will attempt to take own medicine where it is not too painfully pointed out to me or better for me pre-discovered by me.]

If we are going to scrutinize historic figures, we must examine them in context. Anything else is intellectual dishonesty & robbery of the truth.
Best we look at their lives & consider if or how they might have made different choices & how credible/viable or not they would have been/worked in context.

Applying today's instant snapshot of 'moralisms' on past figures is very short sighted.
I hope you will pull back from the more extreme points of potential short sightedness.

And yes there are strong shades of bias, because i am certain i am a net-benefactor of those historic actions. That may not excuse all of them, but i will not be cutting off my nose despite my face.

End of sermonette, lol.

Bill Cosby
10-19-2009, 12:40 PM
Holy atrocities, Batman!

Some really sobering Shiit, Dr. Huxtable...

That said, I'm proud to be an American!!

We can't blame America for what the Spanish did almost 300 years before our founding in Central America, no less.

and while we can't deny over 80 years of slavery after our founding (as well as about 200 years of colonial slavery beforehand), our Country, albeit at times has far too slowly, yet consistently worked towards making the words 'All men are created equal" more of a reality.

If what you wrote is entirely accurate, then Columbus was a 'Psuedo Christian Ideologist', and far from a Christian.

As a conservative, I'll be the first to stand in line to find a new holiday!!

That said, I'm proud to be an American!!

Why??? Only thing you did was get born here..... & you didn't even have a choice... Just a thought... :thumbsup:

consistently worked towards

IMO you are a bit to generous here........ I would say that they have reluctantly, & I do mean reluctantly acquiesced to world pressure... Just look when slavery was outlawed in the Euro (bad) countries & when it took a war 50 years later for the good ppl to finally give in.......

They skipped the jim crow. Remember him????

We & Israel the good ppl supported the ugly south african apartheid system till the bitter end almost...........

But we judge ourselves by our ideals not our actions---- :thumbsup:

I don’t really know what ChristO believed & didn’t believe but I would assume like most men (&women) he struggled to uphold his own ideals… I would say that in the least he certainly acted in a very unChrist like manner…

He was driven his whole life for this, discovering that passage to India & he wasn’t about to let anything or anyone stand in the way of what he believed his due…….. To bad he never found India. Hopefully the northern part… The rich & powerful Moguls would have stuffed his ass full of them glass beads & trinkets & feed him to the fish………

MarkMiller
10-19-2009, 01:25 PM
Hola Bill :thumbsup:
Shit....there goes the neighborhood. :lmao2:

This should be interesting!

Brian-W
10-19-2009, 04:32 PM
Shit....there goes the neighborhood. :lmao2:

This should be interesting!


Been waiting at the gates a while now. Glad to be in :D

MarkMiller
10-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Been waiting at the gates a while now. Glad to be in :D
2 posts....Environmentman will laugh at the puny count.:disbelief: Get cracking.

Brian-W
10-19-2009, 09:56 PM
2 posts....Environmentman will laugh at the puny count.:disbelief: Get cracking.

Well, he sort of invited me, so I'm hoping he will cut me a LITTLE slack.

Mr, gone
10-19-2009, 11:56 PM
Welcome Brian, was your avatar photo shot the morning after?

MarkMiller
10-20-2009, 12:56 AM
Well, he sort of invited me, so I'm hoping he will cut me a LITTLE slack.
Oh the irony.:D

mtz
10-20-2009, 03:03 AM
Why??? Only thing you did was get born here..... & you didn't even have a choice... Just a thought... :thumbsup:

OUCH!! Some good points...but the blood of my ancestors spilled from the Green Mountain Boys, to being Yankees, to 6 Great Uncles receiving purple hearts to 3 great aunts posthumously receiving the first ever WAC, or AWAC award. My father also served during Korea, and I served as well for 9 years.

I'm proud of that, and I don't care if you have an issue. I realize that I didn't personally save the human race like Al Gore is currently doing.



IMO you are a bit to generous here........ I would say that they have reluctantly, & I do mean reluctantly acquiesced to world pressure... Just look when slavery was outlawed in the Euro (bad) countries & when it took a war 50 years later for the good ppl to finally give in.......

I have no excuse for that!


They skipped the jim crow. Remember him????

I support neither forced integration, or forced segregation...both create different issues. What I am still disturbed by is the entire 'equal/separate' concept. Just plain stupid!

We & Israel the good ppl supported the ugly south african apartheid system till the bitter end almost...........

But we judge ourselves by our ideals not our actions---- :thumbsup:

I don’t really know what ChristO believed & didn’t believe but I would assume like most men (&women) he struggled to uphold his own ideals… I would say that in the least he certainly acted in a very unChrist like manner…

He was driven his whole life for this, discovering that passage to India & he wasn’t about to let anything or anyone stand in the way of what he believed his due…….. To bad he never found India. Hopefully the northern part… The rich & powerful Moguls would have stuffed his ass full of them glass beads & trinkets & feed him to the fish………

I'm just guessing that C-CO was a 'Christian', because he was 'commanded by the Queen'.

I'm a Christian, and by that I mean a 'Jesus' Christian that believes in charity, forgiveness, and friendship. At times I fail, but thankfully I'm not tempted by things like 'conquest, domination, enslavement'.

I think this is a great thread, and thank you for posting. We all need a sobering reminder of history now and then.

Brian-W
10-20-2009, 08:17 AM
Welcome Brian, was your avatar photo shot the morning after?

More like 5 minutes after. :D

Brian-W
10-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Why??? Only thing you did was get born here..... & you didn't even have a choice... Just a thought... :thumbsup:



I always liked George Carlin's take on American pride.

"I could never understand ethnic or national pride, because to me pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own -- not something that happens by accident of birth."

CosmicRocker
10-20-2009, 01:12 PM
That's what conquerors do....or did you just forget about the Aztecs, Incas and the Mayans. The Spanish wiped out entire civilizations.

I heard that some people were protesting Italians because of Columbus day because of the atrocities....but it was the spanish that did those things.
They did, as the English did to the Native Americans further north.

It was a different time period, with different knowledge.

" Human rights" wasn't even a concept back then, torture was common as was slavery worldwide.

To try to look back at Columbus thru contemporay eyes, and apply contemporary ideas is ludicrous.

I'm not justifying the Mercantilism, or the exploitation of the Americas, but the same shit was happening everywhere.

Modern America recognizes the sovereignity of the various tribes.

The Seminole Nation here in Fla. is the only entity that can legally have casino type gambling.
Most of them make a lot of money now, that is at least some compensation.

You can't judge historical atrocities by modern standards, although that doesn't excuse it either.

MarkMiller
10-20-2009, 01:22 PM
They did, as the English did to the Native Americans further north.

It was a different time period, with different knowledge.

" Human rights" wasn't even a concept back then, torture was common as was slavery worldwide.

To try to look back at Columbus thru contemporay eyes, and apply contemporary ideas is ludicrous.

I'm not justifying the Mercantilism, or the exploitation of the Americas, but the same shit was happening everywhere.

Modern America recognizes the sovereignity of the various tribes.

The Seminole Nation here in Fla. is the only entity that can legally have casino type gambling.
Most of them make a lot of money now, that is at least some compensation.

You can't judge historical atrocities by modern standards, although that doesn't excuse it either.

You can, and have no choice but to judge by modern standards. These standards are from that history.

You can blame the US for it's mass murder of the Indians, it's take over of lands etc.

Besides.....what the Spanish did in South America was horrible even in those days. There were already advocates for human rights and intellectuals who thought differently as there are today. There are even those that wrote about what happened with a view that it was awful.

It is simple not true that we have to look at the past differently then the present. That's an easy cope out....no offense.

CosmicRocker
10-20-2009, 01:58 PM
You can, and have no choice but to judge by modern standards. These standards are from that history.

You can blame the US for it's mass murder of the Indians, it's take over of lands etc.

Besides.....what the Spanish did in South America was horrible even in those days. There were already advocates for human rights and intellectuals who thought differently as there are today. There are even those that wrote about what happened with a view that it was awful.

It is simple not true that we have to look at the past differently then the present. That's an easy cope out....no offense.
Oh for Christs sake - grow the fuck up, and smell the Columbian coffee. No offense either.

Sure their were " intellectuals"/advocates - but that wasn't the way gov't policy was run.
Now we make human rights a part of of policy.

I'm not gonna get into a discussion of Manifest Destiney, but " might makes it Right" was the prevailing idea back then.

You can't go back in time and apply contemporary standards.

This is not to excuse the torture, but the Mayans wern't exactly a peaceful nation either.
One thing I would agree with, is the fact they had an advanced civilization, and it was plundered solely for it's riches.

It is what it is - hopefully we've become a bit more aware of these things now.

disrupter
10-20-2009, 04:15 PM
Might always carries the day.
It is up to us to try to get might to operate in the interest of 'right' so far as we can see it.

The magic of America [standing upon some societal liberalization from mother Britain] is that armaments were distributed, for practical reasons of course.
To defend against wild animals, to hunt them & to defend [or attack] American Indians.
Because we had a broadly distributed capacity for violence it made unyoking from colonial rule much easier & when a government was created it intrinsically, organically had no other option than to be a liberal democracy with political power broadly distributed via democratic elections & civil protections from overbearing government.

France, under the yoke of Imperialism saw the United States as the vision of a people's nation.

In Britain & in France it took violent revolutions [to varying degrees & stages] to achieve their particular strains of liberal democratic governance.
In the US we had a violent revolt against colonialism & created a liberal democracy from whole cloth [as well as our indigenous circumstances which were already operating much that way].

Without the 2nd Amendment you will not hold on to all the others.
One of Hitler's early moves was to use the gun registries to confiscate citizen possession of firearms.

Liberals do not seem to understand that the freedom to bear arms is the organic root of all the other extremely valuable & profitable civil liberties. Freedom of speech/press, Habeas Corpus [from earlier sources], Illegal search & seizure, right to trial by jury of your peers, etc.

Just like distributed economics have really wonderful potentials, so does distributed armaments. One naturally, organically backs up the other. But i think the 2nd amendment, distributed arms, is perhaps the more primary of those two.

Toothless animals can only survive as vulnerable, pampered pets, living at the changing whims of their masters.

Bill Cosby
10-20-2009, 04:27 PM
I'm just guessing that C-CO was a 'Christian', because he was 'commanded by the Queen'.

I'm a Christian, and by that I mean a 'Jesus' Christian that believes in charity, forgiveness, and friendship. At times I fail, but thankfully I'm not tempted by things like 'conquest, domination, enslavement'.

I think this is a great thread, and thank you for posting. We all need a sobering reminder of history now and then.

When you write in the quote it is very confusing & they don't want ppl altering quotes.... So pls try to just do it another way..... :thumbsup:

OUCH!! Some good points...but the blood of my ancestors spilled from the Green Mountain Boys, to being Yankees, to 6 Great Uncles receiving purple hearts to 3 great aunts posthumously receiving the first ever WAC, or AWAC award. My father also served during Korea, and I served as well for 9 years.

I'm proud of that, and I don't care if you have an issue. I realize that I didn't personally save the human race like Al Gore is currently doing.


Ok I understand your point there.. :)

............. Well I think we can agree that Chris certainly did not act very Christian... Or for those who don't like Christians would say he acted very Christian....lol IMO his motives, as I said were about him, not Christianity..

Have a fun afternoon........

ROdger Right
10-21-2009, 05:44 PM
They did, as the English did to the Native Americans further north.

It was a different time period, with different knowledge.

" Human rights" wasn't even a concept back then, torture was common as was slavery worldwide.

To try to look back at Columbus thru contemporay eyes, and apply contemporary ideas is ludicrous.

I'm not justifying the Mercantilism, or the exploitation of the Americas, but the same shit was happening everywhere.

Modern America recognizes the sovereignity of the various tribes.

The Seminole Nation here in Fla. is the only entity that can legally have casino type gambling.
Most of them make a lot of money now, that is at least some compensation.

You can't judge historical atrocities by modern standards, although that doesn't excuse it either.

It only took them 3 wars with America to get such rights.

ROdger Right
10-21-2009, 05:47 PM
Oh for Christs sake - grow the fuck up, and smell the Columbian coffee. No offense either.

Sure their were " intellectuals"/advocates - but that wasn't the way gov't policy was run.
Now we make human rights a part of of policy.

I'm not gonna get into a discussion of Manifest Destiney, but " might makes it Right" was the prevailing idea back then.

You can't go back in time and apply contemporary standards.

This is not to excuse the torture, but the Mayans wern't exactly a peaceful nation either.
One thing I would agree with, is the fact they had an advanced civilization, and it was plundered solely for it's riches.

It is what it is - hopefully we've become a bit more aware of these things now.

No, there is a reason he died without fame and glory by his side.

He could have gotten away with whatever he did do with I guess we call the dirty bastards hispanics or latinos nowa days. His own men complained and ruined a reputation for a couple of centurys it worked I guess.

gOd
10-22-2009, 01:23 PM
Not really. Columbus did not actually discover America first of all, nor did he even believe so. He was looking for a trade rout to the East Asia and had died believing that was what it was.

There is documentation the the British in fact had already been traveling to the Americas and...well that actually makes some sense. They even have a theory that overrides the Amerigo idea.
The Native Americans discovered America. Columbus was lost. He was also one of the biggest assholes of all time. Celebrating Columbus Day is worse than Neo-Nazis celebrating Hitler's birthday.

disrupter
10-22-2009, 01:45 PM
Are you willing to surrender all American soil back to indigenous tribes [those that have survived]? WTF will us centuries old invaders go?

Why don't we treat surviving American Indians with some respect?
Like honoring current treaties?
Granting them the right to sovereignty? Allowing them to grow fibrous hemp?
Not stealing even more territory/land from them?
Freeing the illegitimately jail Leonard Peltier? Jailed by the treasonous, criminal FBI.

Lip service about Columbus is vilifying him for your [my] ongoing circumstances & seems like more distractions than even any beginning of reciprocity.

gOd
10-22-2009, 01:57 PM
Are you willing to surrender all American soil back to indigenous tribes [those that have survived]? WTF will us centuries old invaders go?

Why don't we treat surviving American Indians with some respect?
Like honoring current treaties?
Granting them the right to sovereignty? Allowing them to grow fibrous hemp?
Not stealing even more territory/land from them?
Freeing the illegitimately jail Leonard Peltier? Jailed by the treasonous, criminal FBI.

Lip service about Columbus is vilifying him for your [my] ongoing circumstances & seems like more distractions than even any beginning of reciprocity.
Yes, I am willing to get back my ancestral land.

disrupter
10-22-2009, 02:16 PM
Oh, are you an [semi-]indigenous American?

Well, what can i say, but welcome to reality.
I will not be willingly surrendering my home nor property.
I do support the 2nd amendment.

If you think things are going back to a couple of centuries ago, not with my easy acquiescence.
We should be treating [semi-]indigenous Americans vastly better than we are.

The clock doesn't go backwards* for anyone.

We go forward from here either in some kind of agreement or disagreement.

*some reports of 'alien' abductions to speak of time distortions, but there is no clinical understanding of this even it does turn out to hold some truth.

gOd
10-22-2009, 02:38 PM
Oh, are you an [semi-]indigenous American?

Well, what can i say, but welcome to reality.
I will not be willingly surrendering my home nor property.
I do support the 2nd amendment.

If you think things are going back to a couple of centuries ago, not with my easy acquiescence.
We should be treating [semi-]indigenous Americans vastly better than we are.

The clock doesn't go backwards* for anyone.

We go forward from here either in some kind of agreement or disagreement.

*some reports of 'alien' abductions to speak of time distortions, but there is no clinical understanding of this even it does turn out to hold some truth.Who said anything about going backwards? We're living in the Dark Ages now. After the past 8 years, there's no place but up to go. A good start would be ending the celebration of "Columbus the Killer".

CosmicRocker
10-22-2009, 02:39 PM
It only took them 3 wars with America to get such rights.
excellent point -they (Seminoles)never did sign a peace treaty

disrupter
10-22-2009, 02:41 PM
Columbus may have been bad, but it was the Spanish that were collectively far worse.

Imperial Religious zeal supporting more atrocities.

gOd
10-22-2009, 02:44 PM
Columbus may have been bad, but it was the Spanish that were collectively far worse.

Imperial Religious zeal supporting more atrocities.
That's no reason to celebrate his murderous ass.

disrupter
10-22-2009, 02:57 PM
I would have to condemn my own existence to blanketly condemn him.

Sorry, that is not going to happen.

Maybe he could have been a far nicer, humane guy.
But you would have to demonstrate to me that one can have unrivaled initiative as well as be a very decent considerate guy.
Clinically i have no idea. But there are probably more advantageous things to look into, but that would make a very interesting thesis for someone to pursue.

It is far better, more credible if you demonstrate the value of the very people he so maligned & mistreated.

Reality is a marketplace.
None of us is anymore valued than our most recent product or more so for our prospective/expected produce.
People, including you & me are a commodity. Only short lived & stupid fools forget that.

If you are an American Indian, you have a slight cachet advantage. Your genetics are rarer than mine. On that alone you have a starting advantage to me. But it can not but help for any one of us to make the most of our individual selves.
Survival is a completely unapologetic, disrespectful foot/road/rat-race.
Let go of the past & fly into the future with the terrified rest of us.

gOd
10-22-2009, 03:16 PM
I would have to condemn my own existence to blanketly condemn him.

Sorry, that is not going to happen.

Maybe he could have been a far nicer, humane guy.
But you would have to demonstrate to me that one can have unrivaled initiative as well as be a very decent considerate guy.
Clinically i have no idea. But there are probably more advantageous things to look into, but that would make a very interesting thesis for someone to pursue.

It is far better, more credible if you demonstrate the value of the very people he so maligned & mistreated.

Reality is a marketplace.
None of us is anymore valued than our most recent product or more so for our prospective/expected produce.
People, including you & me are a commodity. Only short lived & stupid fools forget that.

If you are an American Indian, you have a slight cachet advantage. Your genetics are rarer than mine. On that alone you have a starting advantage to me. But it can not but help for any one of us to make the most of our individual selves.
Survival is a completely unapologetic, disrespectful foot/road/rat-race.
Let go of the past & fly into the future with the terrified rest of us.
That's still no reason to celebrate a murderer. The worst genocide in history occurred here in America. Why celebrate the asshole who started it?

disrupter
10-22-2009, 03:22 PM
I celebrate his territorial conquest/acquisition of it.

Just like the Sioux or Apaches celebrated conquest &/or domination.

gOd
10-22-2009, 03:25 PM
I celebrate his territorial conquest/acquisition of it.

Just like the Sioux or Apaches celebrated conquest &/or domination.
I burn him in effigy and piss on the remaining embers.

ROdger Right
10-22-2009, 03:37 PM
That's still no reason to celebrate a murderer. The worst genocide in history occurred here in America. Why celebrate the asshole who started it?

Your living in the wrong country if you think we dont celebrate our murderers.
Exhibit A: the 20 dollar bill what a terrific murderer and America is better off from having him.
Columbus wasn't all that terrible compared to others who came to this land.

Heres an example of a brave and vicous man. Custer maybe have slaughtered all sorts of tribes but if he didn't make the southern calvary retreat at gettysburg would you be iving in the same country? (He charged them withabout the same amount of force as he did when he got slaughtered also.

ROdger Right
10-22-2009, 03:39 PM
I burn him in effigy and piss on the remaining embers.

Instead of condeming the white man you should celebrate your tribal backround and history

disrupter
10-22-2009, 03:51 PM
I need to be clear here.
I am glad he discovered the wonderful temperate place i now live.

I don't celebrate his maltreatment of people.

But think of what he did.
He took three SMALL boats out onto an open ocean of unknown scale & shape.

Many people believed the world was flat & if you sailed out far enough you would fall off.
[See 'Discworld', great hilarious fantasy]
Maps had "there-be-monsters". The reality of rogue monster waves is not so much better.
Probably many ships that sailed never returned for unknown reasons.
Most sailed, never venturing far from coasts.

He had seen boat's masts disappear last over the horizon, viewed through a telescope, indicating an arc shape.
So with badly preserved food stores,
he sailed upon his belief of a round/spherical globe.
Arguing it as an easier route to rich [East] Indian markets & treasures.

I celebrate his nerve of conviction of his intellectually held idea of a round globe.

Certainly many American Indians had nerve & guts.

But this man took those same attributes & applied them to his intellectual concept that was bigger than himself.
What he did was quite remarkable.

How can i, a candied ass American, condemn a man who made a remarkable discovery real, namely that our planet is a round sphere?

I can certainly see why a decimated people would revile him, arguably justifiably so.

But he made human history in three small boats in a huge unknown ocean.

It reminds me of the character in 'Blade Runner',
the blonde guy talks about seeing incredible sights, paraphrasing,
"I have seen a ship in flames upon the bow of Orion",
but he also says,
"I have done questionable [likely terrible] things."

Reality comes how it comes. Where we go or if we go from there is up to us.

disrupter
10-22-2009, 03:58 PM
I am sure most people of that day would argue that he was a psychotic madman, but maybe that is sometimes what it takes.

Galileo discovered physical principles & astronomy [as well as his arguable arrogance] that had him branded & housebound as a heretic.

Progress is seemingly mostly a tortured thing.

Imagine the magnitude of the ideas these people were proposing, & then launching yourself out on this belief? It defies my nerve.

disrupter
10-22-2009, 07:28 PM
Does drama [always? have to?] ride the nightmare?

I am sort of asking this as a technical question.

In fiction it is much much easier to craft a story where there are ready & colorful villains. Some stories are more about the villain than anything else, notable Freddy Kruger comes to mind. Without Voldemort would Harry Potter be half the story it is?

Now when it comes to reality, are the heros of history very often somewhat or profoundly flawed? Without some pathological drive would historical figures been so driven to achieve or be at the forefront of the public eye?

Hitler is the most remembered figure from WWII. Stalin, Churchill & FDR or their generals acted largely as a response to his actions/initiations.

Some of the most progressive, populist figures of modern history are sexual philanderers. MLK, Clinton, FDR, John Kennedy [Bobby Kennedy?].
I still think John Edwards would have very possibly been a better choice for Democrats than Hillary or Obama.

Science is full of egotism, betrayal, heroic singular opposition to the convention of 'acceptable' thinking, opposition to religious dogma, as well as mysticism. Technology is probably not that far different, perhaps it is even more devious, because avarice becomes involved.

In religion it seems more the horrors of hell that are used to drive people on rather than the joys & treasures of heaven.

Back to the question,

Is it readily possible to craft [fictional, non-fictional & actual reality] drama that does not ride the back of some clear nightmare? If there are not terrible possibilities lurking about, where else would urgency, significance, importance come from?

Are nightmares [usually] more concise, crisp & distinct than the fuzzy, warm bumbling of dreams?
I wonder if you could do a movie where there was some profound foreboding of doom/nightmare without ever really giving it form? Maybe we are just more susceptible to vague feelings of terror, doom, ominous fears whereas joy, happiness, carefreeness can sort of take care of themselves?
Maybe evolution has to build in the fear, whereas joy/peace [other than love/sexual-reproduction] is left to its own devices?