What is the Cost of Doing Nothing on Healthcare?

[SortofLiberal]

We hear a lot about what MIGHT happen if Obama gets his healthcare plan passed, but not much is said about what WILL happen if we leave things as the Republicans want with the status quo.

History has shown us that the cost of healthcare is rising at a rate of doubling every ten years. With that rise, we now find 47 million people without healthcare, so you can only hope that YOU are not one of the ones that will be part of that statistic in the next ten years. Costs have doubled and in some areas tripled over the past ten years. Insurance companies have gone from profits of $2.5 billion to $12.8 billion dollars during the past ten years and their profits are coming out of YOUR pocket. So the long and the short of it, is simple. Costs are going to continue to rise which will mean the American people will no longer be able to afford to pay their premiums and small businesses and even large ones will have to stop offering healthcare coverage at all and those on Medicare will see their benefits shrink because taxpayers will no longer be able to afford to GIVE them everything they demand because they will not be able to afford the taxes.

Then there is the EXXON factor. When the Republicans ran things we saw our gas prices jump for no apparent reason and Exxon posted the largest profits ever recorded for any company in the history of the world. Do you really think that the insurance industry will not raise rates just like the oil industry did when they realize they have been given carte blanche to do so with the defeat of Obama's healthcare bill.

No, there are not death panels in the Obama plan, but there are certainly factors that will lead to death in letting the Republicans have their way to protect the big healthcare companies. Hell, people are already dying because Republicans put their support from Health Insurance lobbyist ahead of the American people. How many people do you think die each year because they didn't have their health issue diagnosed early because they didn't have health insurance. Obama doesn't have any plans to kill Grandma, but Republicans have killed hundreds of thousands with their stand on not letting the American people have what every other affluent nations has . . . access to affordable healthcare.

[kres24GT]

Letting a failing system fail would be great. Propping it up with tax dollars and Big Government, not so much.

[SortofLiberal]

Letting a failing system fail would be great. Propping it up with tax dollars and Big Government, not so much.


So, what do you do after it fails and we are all up shit creek? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Why is it that conservatives always refuse to do anything if the end result is not PERFECT in their eyes?

Why let it fail. Why not scrap everything . . . Medicare, Medicaid, the military coverage, the VA coverage, cancel all private policies. Funny how conservatives want everything to run its course as long as they are getting their slop out of the trough, You do realize that the majority of conservatives in this country are on Medicare, don't you? So, let them go without access to healthcare for a few months and rest assured, attitudes would change radically. Funny how the ones that don't give a damn are the ones that can whip out that Medicare card while saying the government can't run healthcare. Seems to me they have had pretty good care with the government running THEIR healthcare.

So, you want to leave everything to big business to straighten things out. Has it occurred to you that BIG BUSINESS is what got us into this mess. The government programs are working just fine. It is the private sector where everything is totally F'd up.

But, that is typical conservative thinking. Going down the wrong path . . . just keep going and it should get us out of trouble eventually. Corporate American is raping the consumers, let's just hand them a shitload of money and pad the pockets of those running them even more. . . you do realize it was George W that gave Wall Street almost as much money as Obama plans to spend on healthcare, don't you?

Where was this attitude of let the private sector handle it when George W was conning seniors into thinking he was doing something for them when in reality he was just giving a windfall to the pharmaceutical companies since they could charge the taxpayers whatever they wanted for those chep drugs seniors were getting under Medicare D. Where was all the concern over how much and how it was going to be paid for then?

Face it, this isn't about what is right or wrong for the American people. This is about Republicans wanting to make a Democratic President look bad and let the American people be damned. Well, we were damned for eight years of the Bush administration and now we continue to be damned because Republicans always put party ahead of what is best for country or the American people.

[Captain Obvious]

We hear a lot about what MIGHT happen if Obama gets his healthcare plan passed, but not much is said about what WILL happen if we leave things as the Republicans want with the status quo.

History has shown us that the cost of healthcare is rising at a rate of doubling every ten years. With that rise, we now find 47 million people without healthcare, so you can only hope that YOU are not one of the ones that will be part of that statistic in the next ten years. Costs have doubled and in some areas tripled over the past ten years. Insurance companies have gone from profits of $2.5 billion to $12.8 billion dollars during the past ten years and their profits are coming out of YOUR pocket. So the long and the short of it, is simple. Costs are going to continue to rise which will mean the American people will no longer be able to afford to pay their premiums and small businesses and even large ones will have to stop offering healthcare coverage at all and those on Medicare will see their benefits shrink because taxpayers will no longer be able to afford to GIVE them everything they demand because they will not be able to afford the taxes.

Then there is the EXXON factor. When the Republicans ran things we saw our gas prices jump for no apparent reason and Exxon posted the largest profits ever recorded for any company in the history of the world. Do you really think that the insurance industry will not raise rates just like the oil industry did when they realize they have been given carte blanche to do so with the defeat of Obama's healthcare bill.

No, there are not death panels in the Obama plan, but there are certainly factors that will lead to death in letting the Republicans have their way to protect the big healthcare companies. Hell, people are already dying because Republicans put their support from Health Insurance lobbyist ahead of the American people. How many people do you think die each year because they didn't have their health issue diagnosed early because they didn't have health insurance. Obama doesn't have any plans to kill Grandma, but Republicans have killed hundreds of thousands with their stand on not letting the American people have what every other affluent nations has . . . access to affordable healthcare.

Fix the systems that are in place - Medicare, Medicaid. Want to give healthcare to the needy? Fix Medicaid.

Replacing failing programs with new, bigger failing programs is foolish, and fixing healthcare isn't the basis for democratic legislation on the issue.

Medical handcuffs.

[kres24GT]

So, what do you do after it fails and we are all up shit creek? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Why is it that conservatives always refuse to do anything if the end result is not PERFECT in their eyes?

Why let it fail. Why not scrap everything . . . Medicare, Medicaid, the military coverage, the VA coverage, cancel all private policies. Funny how conservatives want everything to run its course as long as they are getting their slop out of the trough, You do realize that the majority of conservatives in this country are on Medicare, don't you? So, let them go without access to healthcare for a few months and rest assured, attitudes would change radically. Funny how the ones that don't give a damn are the ones that can whip out that Medicare card while saying the government can't run healthcare. Seems to me they have had pretty good care with the government running THEIR healthcare.

So, you want to leave everything to big business to straighten things out. Has it occurred to you that BIG BUSINESS is what got us into this mess. The government programs are working just fine. It is the private sector where everything is totally F'd up.

But, that is typical conservative thinking. Going down the wrong path . . . just keep going and it should get us out of trouble eventually. Corporate American is raping the consumers, let's just hand them a shitload of money and pad the pockets of those running them even more. . . you do realize it was George W that gave Wall Street almost as much money as Obama plans to spend on healthcare, don't you?

Where was this attitude of let the private sector handle it when George W was conning seniors into thinking he was doing something for them when in reality he was just giving a windfall to the pharmaceutical companies since they could charge the taxpayers whatever they wanted for those chep drugs seniors were getting under Medicare D. Where was all the concern over how much and how it was going to be paid for then?

Face it, this isn't about what is right or wrong for the American people. This is about Republicans wanting to make a Democratic President look bad and let the American people be damned. Well, we were damned for eight years of the Bush administration and now we continue to be damned because Republicans always put party ahead of what is best for country or the American people.


I can't speak for conservatives or republicans. I am all for letting a broken system fail so it can be placed with one that works though. I hate both parties so I don't give a shit about that. I was a very loud opponent of Bush and his free drugs for old folks here, have brought up many times and my disgust with it. Also spoke out heavily against the Bush and Obama bailouts of wallstreet, the autos, etc. Not sure what that had to do with anything.

[MichMike]

Here is what the National Academies of Sciences (one of the most respected scientific bodies in the world) thinks:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=10719


...and you're right, the do nothings never mention this.

[kres24GT]

Here is what the National Academies of Sciences (one of the most respected scientific bodies in the world) thinks:

http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?RecordID=10719


...and you're right, the do nothings never mention this.


I just mentioned it, let the current system fail, it is broken, it will be replaced with one that works.

[GetAClue]

Well once again I see the same old argument out of the liberals. Simply providing health insurance to those without it does NOTHING to curb costs. Once again, you claim that conservatives propose doing nothing about rising healthcare costs. Well if disagreeing with Obama is doing nothing, then I am guilty as charged.

However, what you fail to mention is that a lot of conservatives happen to agree that something should be done about the rising cost of healthcare in this country. Where we differ is on which approach is more worthy of consideration. The left (per usual) believes we should just raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations and use this money (after it passes thru the money pit called the federal government) to provide health insurance to those currently without it.

Most conservatives view this approach as nothing more that wealth redistribution and NOT addressing the core problems associated with the rising cost of healthcare. Conservatives believe that if we were to focus on the factors that are driving the cost of healthcare up, there are things that could be done to bring those costs down thus allowing more people the opportunity to take advantage of the services at lower costs.

But once again, this does not fit the Obama/liberal playbook. Instead of listening and debating ideas from conservatives, all we get from the liberals is that conservatives are just trying to bring Obama down because they are racist or some other attack that distracts from having to actually discuss the topic and address the facts.

[kres24GT]

MichMike, do you support government regulating our diet, telling us what we can and cannot eat?

[MichMike]

I just mentioned it, let the current system fail, it is broken, it will be replaced with one that works.


So your "plan" is to let things implode - leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths and trauma for millions - ensuring a required recovery period of decades.

OK, let me explain this to you one more time. Nobody is going to let the country get destroyed to move to a political philosophy that only 2% of the people (most still believe in Santa Clause) support!

Unfortunately for you, a complete collapse of the system is not going to happen. Hence, you are 2 percent.

[MichMike]

Well once again I see the same old argument out of the liberals. Simply providing health insurance to those without it does NOTHING to curb costs. Once again, you claim that conservatives propose doing nothing about rising healthcare costs. Well if disagreeing with Obama is doing nothing, then I am guilty as charged.

However, what you fail to mention is that a lot of conservatives happen to agree that something should be done about the rising cost of healthcare in this country. Where we differ is on which approach is more worthy of consideration. The left (per usual) believes we should just raise taxes on the wealthy and corporations and use this money (after it passes thru the money pit called the federal government) to provide health insurance to those currently without it.

Most conservatives view this approach as nothing more that wealth redistribution and NOT addressing the core problems associated with the rising cost of healthcare. Conservatives believe that if we were to focus on the factors that are driving the cost of healthcare up, there are things that could be done to bring those costs down thus allowing more people the opportunity to take advantage of the services at lower costs.

But once again, this does not fit the Obama/liberal playbook. Instead of listening and debating ideas from conservatives, all we get from the liberals is that conservatives are just trying to bring Obama down because they are racist or some other attack that distracts from having to actually discuss the topic and address the facts.


I think you need to read the bills. Also, don't create strawman arguments. Yes, I like the Baucus bill better than others out there and think it is a lot better than doing nothing. This is a far cry from the crap you put into my mouth up there. While you label things without reading them, I will attempt to educate...

http://dailyme.com/story/2009091700005186/baucus-health-plan-nod-republican-ideas.html

[Bill Cosby]

Letting a failing system fail would be great. Propping it up with tax dollars and Big Government, not so much.

Do you have health care yes or no??

[Captain Obvious]

The question shouldn't be "what is the cost of doing nothing on healthcare", but "what is the savings for fixing the system that is currently in place".

[MichMike]

The question shouldn't be "what is the cost of doing nothing on healthcare", but "what is the savings for fixing the system that is currently in place".


Idiot alert. One of the variables above influences your suggested metric. Are you too dumb to understand that?

Go look up Medicare Advantage overpayments and report back.

[Bill Cosby]

I just mentioned it, let the current system fail, it is broken, it will be replaced with one that works.

Works???
Works for who?? Wall street or main street???



Anyone.......................???

What portion of GDP is HC in Canada???

The USA????

What is the projection for increase in Canada??

Teh USA???

That is your answer right there..... :thumbsup:

[GetAClue]

I think you need to read the bills. Also, don't create strawman arguments. Yes, I like the Baucus bill better than others out there and think it is a lot better than doing nothing. This is a far cry from the crap you put into my mouth up there. While you label things without reading them, I will attempt to educate...

http://dailyme.com/story/2009091700005186/baucus-health-plan-nod-republican-ideas.html
I was replying to the original poster in this thread who stated that Republicans don't want to do anything except kill reform.

I have read the bills and from what I can tell, it is just more of the same, redistribution of the wealth from the producers in this country to those that produce nothing but expect handouts from those that do. Meanwhile, who benefits the most? The insurance companies and those in the government.

And while you may not have noticed, I did not refer to Republican's in my post. I think the Republicans are almost as bad as the Democrats. I referred to Conservatives. True Conservatives wish to focus on the practices and policies that help drive up costs while providing no benefit to the average consumer. The Baucus bill, while giving some lip service to these ideas, is nothing more than another bloated, power grab at the expense of the tax payer.

[MichMike]

I was replying to the original poster in this thread who stated that Republicans don't want to do anything except kill reform.

I have read the bills and from what I can tell, it is just more of the same, redistribution of the wealth from the producers in this country to those that produce nothing but expect handouts from those that do. Meanwhile, who benefits the most? The insurance companies and those in the government.

And while you may not have noticed, I did not refer to Republican's in my post. I think the Republicans are almost as bad as the Democrats. I referred to Conservatives. True Conservatives wish to focus on the practices and policies that help drive up costs while providing no benefit to the average consumer. The Baucus bill, while giving some lip service to these ideas, is nothing more than another bloated, power grab at the expense of the tax payer.


Wrong, you were clearly casting labels on Obama's beliefs and suggesting nobody is looking at the Republican input. Wrong.

Now then, explain what the Baucus bill does to save money in Medicare?

[ROdger Right]

Works???
Works for who?? Wall street or main street???



Anyone.......................???

What portion of GDP is HC in Canada???

The USA????

What is the projection for increase in Canada??

Teh USA???

That is your answer right there..... :thumbsup:

I thought you said that our system wont be like the Canadian system, so how then can you compare the two?

[MichMike]

GetAClue...I'm waiting.

By the way, explain the CAPS in the Baucus bill to me. While at it, please define the insurance company limitations and the CBO's analysis of how much it will add to the deficit (hint: it reduces the deficit).

[kres24GT]

Works???
Works for who?? Wall street or main street???



Anyone.......................???

What portion of GDP is HC in Canada???

The USA????

What is the projection for increase in Canada??

Teh USA???

That is your answer right there..... :thumbsup:


For main st, wall st would be hurt if the current system failed.

[GetAClue]

Wrong, you were clearly casting labels on Obama's beliefs and suggesting nobody is looking at the Republican input. Wrong.

Now then, explain what the Baucus bill does to save money in Medicare?
I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. I don't know Obama's beliefs. However, based on the words he has used and the actions he has taken, those beliefs are not in line with mine. And as an American citizen, I have the right to disagree with him (at least for now). And where did you even get Obama? He does not have a bill.

As far as the Baucus bill goes, it is a joke. Even the Democrats are trashing it. Again, instead of looking for ways to cut costs, Congress wants to scrap a system that seems to have 85% of the American citizens happy to pander to their base.

When ever a bill costs 100's of billions of dollars, someone is going to have to pay for it. Where do you think they will get this money? Oh I forgot, they just print it. There's a plan.

Besides, it does not matter what is in any of the bills now. Until they go thru conference between both houses, they are just pieces of paper. The problem is that this liberal congress will not allow a bill to go into law that does not give the government even more power over our lives than they currently have.

Now, go quiz someone else. I have to head out to my son's football game now.

[kres24GT]

Do you have health care yes or no??

You mean insurance?

[foxbaron]

What's the chance of just leaving the system as it is but require the insurance companies to all share somehow in offerring a group policy that the poor and uninsured can buy into at a reasonable price with some sort of government assistance to the plan to help cover costs.

Maybe divide it up by state. All insurance companies in the state share equally in the premiums and share equally in the costs when there are claims with the government putting into the pot according to the number of people in that state that need coverage.

Example: State A has one million uninsured. They get to buy into a group policy at say $200 a head. That's two hundred million dollars in premiums the insurance companies share in, not counting what the government would kick in. (Say an additional 10%-20%)

The question would be how many folks would need to use the insurance and how expensive would it be in a years time. What would be left over in profits for that state at the end of the year that the insurance companies could split up?

Would the insurance companie still make a profit or would they suffer a loss?

[Bill Cosby]

You mean insurance?

So do you not consider your insurance as care???

I guess you can have insurance & not get care.......... Is that it???



I will leave it up to you.............

You seem a bit reluctant...... You don't have to say..... I will understand..:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

What's the chance of just leaving the system as it is but require the insurance companies ?
Well I would say little because of the insurance companies.......

Why???

What benefit is that to my family or friends?? Nothing none of us work for or have investments in that industry.......

I see how it benefits them but not us...

Should they have mandated buggy whips on all cars to help out the buggy whip ppl???

How about a poor horse salesman when the auto started catching on???

Why are these healthcare ppl some protected species???

The dumb fucking whales don’t deserve our help & protection but insurance agents need=deserve our help & protection…….. Cry me a fucking river……….

Why are they better than the steel workers??? Or the auto workers??? NAFTA & all these deals meant they had to "sacrifice for the rest of us" but now when the needed sacrifice is out on wallstreet the rules change......???lol

[ROdger Right]

Well I would say little because of the insurance companies.......

Why???

What benefit is that to my family or friends?? Nothing none of us work for or have investments in that industry.......

I see how it benefits them but not us...

Should they have mandated buggy whips on all cars to help out the buggy whip ppl???

How about a poor horse salesman when the auto started catching on???

Why are these healthcare ppl some protected species???

The dumb fucking whales don’t deserve our help & protection but insurance agents need=deserve our help & protection…….. Cry me a fucking river……….

Why are they better than the steel workers??? Or the auto workers??? NAFTA & all these deals meant they had to "sacrifice for the rest of us" but now when the needed sacrifice is out on wallstreet the rules change......???lol

The reason why the bill will fail.

[SortofLiberal]

Fix the systems that are in place - Medicare, Medicaid. Want to give healthcare to the needy? Fix Medicaid.

Replacing failing programs with new, bigger failing programs is foolish, and fixing healthcare isn't the basis for democratic legislation on the issue.

Medical handcuffs.


I wish people would get their story straid about this. We have the seniors saying they don't trust the government to run a healthcare system, but then they will tell you that they don't want anything changed about THEIR Medicare.

Funny how no one wants the government run programs changed because they are working for them, but they don't want the government to strart a new program to those who are having to pay for THEIR programs. You do realize those left behind are the working poor. You know those people who have money taken out of the checks every week to make sure seniors and the poor people that are screaming in town hall meetings that they don't trust the government to run a program for the working poor, but think it is just fine that these people are paying for insurance for them when they don't have access to insurance for themselves. And you can't see something wrong with this?

[Bill Cosby]

I wish people would get their story straid about this. We have the seniors saying they don't trust the government to run a healthcare system, but then they will tell you that they don't want anything changed about THEIR Medicare.

Funny how no one wants the government run programs changed because they are working for them, but they don't want the government to strart a new program to those who are having to pay for THEIR programs. You do realize those left behind are the working poor. You know those people who have money taken out of the checks every week to make sure seniors and the poor people that are screaming in town hall meetings that they don't trust the government to run a program for the working poor, but think it is just fine that these people are paying for insurance for them when they don't have access to insurance for themselves. And you can't see something wrong with this?

:thumbsup: Well said............

[disrupter]

If no [CORPORATE WELFARE EXTORTION] bill is passed the downturn in the health 'system' [aka trainwreck] won't ACCELERATE!

Stop congress before it 'legislates' again, for the sake of your nation.

If they pass a bad bill [like Baucus's] the ruin will come sooner rather than later.