Hes gonna git me gunzzzz!!!!

[MichMike]

Yes, let the kids go without food, forget about weatherproofing the cabin we live in, my 1988 pick-up will have to go with new tires...me gonna buy me some ammo!

Fox Newzzz tells me dat Obama is gonna take mezzz gunzzz!


You beloved right wing freaks amuse me...keep spending your money on bullets while Fox scares you into it...:lmao2:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090923/ap_on_re_us/us_ammo_shortage

[Captain Obvious]

Yeah, ammo's pricey anymore.

A buck a round for some shells.

[xav8terx]

Yeah, ammo's pricey anymore.

A buck a round for some shells.



Like Chris Rock said...the should be $5000 each.

[MichMike]

The fact that the gun loving righties are the people driving that cost (not Obama) brings me much joy.

In 8 years, after Obama does nothing significant on gun control (maybe beefing up FBI background checks), how will these people view their panic driven investment?


Come on, this is funny!!!

[kres24GT]

Obama winning the presidency was a huge win for the ammunition and gun business. Their business boomed because of a very successful "Obama will take away your guns" campaign.

LMAO @ how stupid people are.

[MichMike]

Obama winning the presidency was a huge win for the ammunition and gun business. Their business boomed because of a very successful "Obama will take away your guns" campaign.

LMAO @ how stupid some people are.


Indeed, Fox, Limbaugh, Levin...they certainly push the stupids to do crazy things.

At last, we agree on something...minus one correction (above)

[kres24GT]

Indeed, Fox, Limbaugh, Levin...they certainly push the stupids to do crazy things.

At last, we agree on something...minus one correction (above)

The same sheep who are driven by fear to turn over our health care to Big Government are no different, its all sheep responding to the fear their shepherds preach. When you are a Big Government sheep (i.e. a republican or Democrat) this is what happens. And if people can profit on your fear, they will do it. Look at how many people are profiting from Global Warming fears. No different than the gun manufacturers.

[MichMike]

The same sheep who are driven by fear to turn over our health care to Big Government are no different, its all sheep responding to the fear their shepherds preach. When you are a Big Government sheep (i.e. a republican or Democrat) this is what happens. And if people can profit on your fear, they will do it. Look at how many people are profiting from Global Warming fears. No different than the gun manufacturers.


How do you feel about the people so afraid of the involvement of government they preach Libertarianism...straight from the mouth of their leader...Mr. Ron Paul?

[kres24GT]

How do you feel about the people so afraid of the involvement of government they preach Libertarianism...straight from the mouth of their leader...Mr. Ron Paul?


People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.

[xav8terx]

People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.


And that is exactly how most people feel.

[Citizen]

I can't wait for the day when only criminals and police have protection. Going to be so awesome. Keep posting your retarded shit asshole.

[xav8terx]

I can't wait for the day when only criminals and police have protection. Going to be so awesome. Keep posting your retarded shit asshole.

So how has you owning a gun (if you do of course) stopped criminals?

[Captain Obvious]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/eastms/SafeRedirect.jpg

[xav8terx]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b373/eastms/SafeRedirect.jpg

So can just go shoot people breaking into someone elses house? When was that law passed?

[MintJulep]

So can just go shoot people breaking into someone elses house? When was that law passed?God you're dense.

[MichMike]

People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.


I completely agree.

What is often missing from your comments and others with shared beliefs, is the same fear must be evidence in relation to large corporations. Corporations receive a free pass from most Libertarians. Democracy is the ultimate check and balance of both.

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

Thomas Jefferson

[xav8terx]

God you're dense.

And you're an ignorant conservative...no reason to call your god dense.

[MintJulep]

And you're an ignorant conservative...no reason to call your god dense.DUH

Time for another bong hit, burnout.

[Binky]

I can't wait for the day when only criminals and police have protection. Going to be so awesome. Keep posting your retarded shit asshole.


:lmao2: :lmao2:

[Citizen]

So how has you owning a gun (if you do of course) stopped criminals?

Stopped or curbed?

[xav8terx]

DUH

Time for another bong hit, burnout.

Not until i get off work. Burnout...i love how thats all you have...the control feels great!!!:lmao2:

[Citizen]

Like Chris Rock said...the should be $5000 each.

I know because we all know criminals can only get their bullets legally at the sporting goods store.

[xav8terx]

I know because we all know criminals can only get their bullets legally at the sporting goods store.


Well i doubt they will get it wholesale.

[MarkMiller]

The fact that the gun loving righties are the people driving that cost (not Obama) brings me much joy.

In 8 years, after Obama does nothing significant on gun control (maybe beefing up FBI background checks), how will these people view their panic driven investment?


Come on, this is funny!!!
Police have to buy bullets as well. Just say'en.

[MarkMiller]

People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.
That's just crap. Governing through fear and intimidation is a terrorist tactic and our government is not a terrorist organization.

The government should fear the people....yeah I know....Glenn Beck says that, But I am not backing down from a belief just because a nutjob brings it up. He just wants liberals to fight over it.

I do not, and will not fear my government. We all have far too many oppurtunities to work from within.

[bairdi]

People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.
Such an opinion runs in complete opposition to that of those men who signed the Declaration of Independence. They believed that government is instituted to protect people's rights and government is instituted and derives its power from the people. In other words, we are the government. To fear government is to fear yourself.

[kres24GT]

I completely agree.

What is often missing from your comments and others with shared beliefs, is the same fear must be evidence in relation to large corporations. Corporations receive a free pass from most Libertarians. Democracy is the ultimate check and balance of both.

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.

Thomas Jefferson


Big Government means corporations always win, in a free market we have the power to defeat corporations, in your Big Government paradise, they own us.

[kres24GT]

Such an opinion runs in complete opposition to that of those men who signed the Declaration of Independence. They believed that government is instituted to protect people's rights and government is instituted and derives its power from the people. In other words, we are the government. To fear government is to fear yourself.

LMAO, you mean the people who overthrew their government for a new one, and who signed a document that says the people should always retain this right.


This was one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on this board, and that says a lot. The founding fathers most certainly taught us to fear government and keep a close eye on it.

[bairdi]

LMAO, you mean the people who overthrew their government for a new one, and who signed a document that says the people should always retain this right.


This was one of the dumbest posts I have ever read on this board, and that says a lot. The founding fathers most certainly taught us to fear government and keep a close eye on it.
That's right. The people who overthrew one government for another and who signed a document that says people should always retain this right did not teach us that government was something to be afraid of but that it should be "instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." They did not write that such a government should be feared but that such a government should be established to secure the rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

These men welcomed government and most certainly did not view government as something which is evil as you do. They had legitimate reasons to sever ties with England which they spelled out in the document. Unlike you, these men had an understanding of the necessity of sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the country. Many of these men lost everything they had to achieve something greater than themselves.

[kres24GT]

That's right. The people who overthrew one government for another and who signed a document that says people should always retain this right did not teach us that government was something to be afraid of but that it should be "instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." They did not write that such a government should be feared but that such a government should be established to secure the rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

These men welcomed government and most certainly did not view government as something which is evil as you do. They had legitimate reasons to sever ties with England which they spelled out in the document. Unlike you, these men had an understanding of the necessity of sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the country. Many of these men lost everything they had to achieve something greater than themselves.


LMAO, good fucking God you are an idiot. Nothing you said here is remotely true. The founding fathers had many faults, one of their strengths was that they viewed government as a necessary evil. The government we have today is not what they envisioned, it is what they hoped to prevent.

Also the founding fathers believed strongly in the idea of individual. Another completely idiotic statement by you.

I knew you were one of the dumber posters here, but good God, did not realize you were this fucking stupid.

[Bill Cosby]

People should be afraid of government. Government should always be feared, treated as a necessary evil, and scrutinized and watched closely. Failure to fear the government is not doing your job as a voter.

Ppl should fear lots of things- not the gov.......... The gov should fear the ppl....

Fear is certainly a motivating factor- especially in politics............

Seems most of the right wing wackO rambo types are the most afraid...

The further to the right you go the scaredERRRrrrrr they get........ :lmao2:

They got "the mob", "the minorities", "the commies", "the socialists" "The nazi's", "the cops", "the IRS" & coke & pepsi all out to get them...........



BBBoooOOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://mountcope.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/coward-2.jpg

[kres24GT]

Ppl should fear lots of things- not the gov.......... The gov should fear the ppl....

Fear is certainly a motivating factor- especially in politics............

Seems most of the right wing wackO rambo types are the most afraid...

The further to the right you go the scaredERRRrrrrr they get........ :lmao2:

They got "the mob", "the minorities", "the commies", "the socialists" "The nazi's", "the cops", "the IRS" & coke & pepsi all out to get them...........



BBBoooOOOOOOOOOOooooOOOOOOOOOOOO

http://mountcope.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/coward-2.jpg


Politicians should fear the people. But they do not, we should fear government. Failure to do so allows us to end up with the mess we have now. Every problem we have right now, it is from not properly fearing government.

[Bill Cosby]

Yes, according to kres24GT........... If we only feared more, feared government more what a better world we would have...........lol http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb/20070610/Three-Kittens-Pink-345066.jpg

Sorry, I don't buy that....

[kres24GT]

Yes, according to kres24GT........... If we only feared more, feared government more what a better world we would have...........lol http://www.featurepics.com/FI/Thumb/20070610/Three-Kittens-Pink-345066.jpg

Sorry, I don't buy that....


Right now we have a corporate run government where the laws and legislation passed are not what is in the best interest of the people, but what is best for Big Business. This is a direct result of not properly fearing government.

Government is a necessary evil, and all evil should be feared.

[Bill Cosby]

Right now we have a corporate run government where the laws and legislation passed are not what is in the best interest of the people, but what is best for Big Business. This is a direct result of not properly fearing government.

Government is a necessary evil, and all evil should be feared.

I agree w/ your observation of our government & who they represent but I disagree w/ why....

See it is those very same ppl that are running the show that are saying all that stuff about fear...

Scare the hell out of them & then point them in the right direction.... (Away from them)...

Some things just need to be questioned...

Oil companies talking about saving the environment...

Japanese whalers doing scientific research on whales.......

Right wingers running the country telling you to fear the very things they control......... ???? HellO!!!!!!!!

They get some ppl all fired up & they don't send them to wallstreet were they live- they send to to main street to beat down welfare queens stealing $20 & sick ppl w/out healthcare............ Afterall they can't fight back anyway....

They have ppl going out protesting against their own self interests.......

:thumbsup:

[bairdi]

I agree w/ your observation of our government & who they represent but I disagree w/ why....

See it is those very same ppl that are running the show that are saying all that stuff about fear...

Scare the hell out of them & then point them in the right direction.... (Away from them)...

Some things just need to be questioned...

Oil companies talking about saving the environment...

Japanese whalers doing scientific research on whales.......

Right wingers running the country telling you to fear the very things they control......... ???? HellO!!!!!!!!

They get some ppl all fired up & they don't send them to wallstreet were they live- they send to to main street to beat down welfare queens stealing $20 & sick ppl w/out healthcare............ Afterall they can't fight back anyway....

They have ppl going out protesting against their own self interests.......

:thumbsup:
Exactly! :thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

I agree w/ your observation of our government & who they represent but I disagree w/ why....

See it is those very same ppl that are running the show that are saying all that stuff about fear...

Scare the hell out of them & then point them in the right direction.... (Away from them)...

Some things just need to be questioned...

Oil companies talking about saving the environment...

Japanese whalers doing scientific research on whales.......

Right wingers running the country telling you to fear the very things they control......... ???? HellO!!!!!!!!

They get some ppl all fired up & they don't send them to wallstreet were they live- they send to to main street to beat down welfare queens stealing $20 & sick ppl w/out healthcare............ Afterall they can't fight back anyway....

They have ppl going out protesting against their own self interests.......

:thumbsup:


LMAO @ attempting you turn it partisan. Slowly going the way of Moby Bill, once a free thinker, headed straight for party sheep.


Of course things need to be questioned, hence why we should fear government. We should always question government, always keep an eye on it, why? We must fear what government can become so that we will do these things, no fear, no accountability. We haven't feared government the last 30 years, look where it has gotten us. A corporate run government that preaches fear not maintain the corporate interests.


When you give the government power, you give the politicians powers, and they in turn sell it to the highest bidder. Without that fear there, this is exactly what happens. You scream for more government involvement in health care, because you do not fear what government can do with that power. That is dangerous. Maybe Politician X who you support actually has the best interest of the people at heart when he passes some sort of UHC (or whatever you want to call it), maybe it is even a decent plan that does some good. 10 years later he is corrupted and finally sells out, or loses office to some corrupt asshole who takes it an fucks it all up. Now things are worse than before. You didn't properly fear government. You gave them the power over your health care without the fear they might take that power and fuck it all up one day.


And don't give me this shit about "the people are the government" and we can just vote those guys out. That is BS in a two party system where at best we are voting for who is least corrupt.

[Bill Cosby]

LMAO @ attempting you turn it partisan. Slowly going the way of Moby Bill, once a free thinker, headed straight for party sheep.


Of course things need to be questioned, hence why we should fear government. We should always question government, always keep an eye on it, why? We must fear what government can become so that we will do these things, no fear, no accountability. We haven't feared government the last 30 years, look where it has gotten us. A corporate run government that preaches fear not maintain the corporate interests.


When you give the government power, you give the politicians powers, and they in turn sell it to the highest bidder. Without that fear there, this is exactly what happens. You scream for more government involvement in health care, because you do not fear what government can do with that power. That is dangerous. Maybe Politician X who you support actually has the best interest of the people at heart when he passes some sort of UHC (or whatever you want to call it), maybe it is even a decent plan that does some good. 10 years later he is corrupted and finally sells out, or loses office to some corrupt asshole who takes it an fucks it all up. Now things are worse than before. You didn't properly fear government. You gave them the power over your health care without the fear they might take that power and fuck it all up one day.


And don't give me this shit about "the people are the government" and we can just vote those guys out. That is BS in a two party system where at best we are voting for who is least corrupt.

Again I think we are in agreement on about everything except fear....

I think you place way to big an emphasis on it, while you think I place far to little on it........ WOrks for me.... :thumbsup:

I really don't see a need to keep going over this...

I will say just this: fear is an emotion not a thought.... BOth can be changed or altered but only one needs reasoning in order to do so...

Fear, IMHO, is much like a blind man w/ a gun.... Once these "emotions & passions" are stirred there is no telling were they will/may be lead......

I also believe there are those that intentionally play on emotions-fear in order to manipulate ppl to do their bidding..... & it works...

Have a fun day......... :thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

Again I think we are in agreement on about everything except fear....

I think you place way to big an emphasis on it, while you think I place far to little on it........ WOrks for me.... :thumbsup:

I really don't see a need to keep going over this...

I will say just this: fear is an emotion not a thought.... BOth can be changed or altered but only one needs reasoning in order to do so...

Fear, IMHO, is much like a blind man w/ a gun.... Once these "emotions & passions" are stirred there is no telling were they will/may be lead......

I also believe there are those that intentionally play on emotions-fear in order to manipulate ppl to do their bidding..... & it works...

Have a fun day......... :thumbsup:


We should fear the government, instead government and supporters of Big Government use fear to make us trust them. Simple as that.

You do it yourself, you are constantly fear mongering over UHC.

[Bill Cosby]

We should fear the government, instead government and supporters of Big Government use fear to make us trust them. Simple as that.

You do it yourself, you are constantly fear mongering over UHC.

How am I doing that............

I have HC............ My kids have HC, dental eye etc.............

I have nothing to fear..........

My advocacy is not for me but the lost sheep like S-H & Eman.........:thumbsup:

If you wish to make a thread on how I scare ppl or PM me I will be happy to explore it if you make it interesting....... I don't wanna derail MichMike's thread w/ our disagreement........ :thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

How am I doing that............

I have HC............ My kids have HC, dental eye etc.............

I have nothing to fear..........

My advocacy is not for me but the lost sheep like S-H & Eman.........:thumbsup:

If you wish to make a thread on how I scare ppl or PM me I will be happy to explore it if you make it interesting....... I don't wanna derail MichMike's thread w/ our disagreement........ :thumbsup:

OK, but screaming '47 Million with no care!" is blatant fear mongering, not to mention a untrue statement. Not sure anyone being objective would disagree with that.

[MichMike]

Big Government means corporations always win, in a free market we have the power to defeat corporations, in your Big Government paradise, they own us.


What you have yet to learn is because you "say" something is true does not make it true. Your philosophy essentially grants for profit corporations to destroy the country in the name of profits...stripping a valuable check and balance (us/government) from the equation. This is why nobody is crazy enough to suggest it...why it works nowhere.

Life is much better now than it was with less government involvement and more corporation control by every measure (think 1900).

We should be cautious of corporations and government understanding that democracy is the key to keeping both entities honest players. Both, however, are essential to the great country on the planet...the United States.

[bairdi]

We should fear the government, instead government and supporters of Big Government use fear to make us trust them. Simple as that.

You do it yourself, you are constantly fear mongering over UHC.
I wonder if this fear of government that you have is a regional thing. As a Son of the South I would imagine you live in a culture that does not trust the US Government. I would also guess that this culture developed years ago after the deep south had it's ass handed to them in the Civil War, saw their cities burned to the ground, it's slave economy destroyed and its exploitation by Northerners. This type of distrust is passed generation to generation. This is about the only explanation that makes sense to me. Otherwise why would you keep calling for a type of government that would be disastrous for the country and would cause untold suffering for millions of your fellow Americans?

[GetAClue]

I don't know that I would say we should "fear" the government, but we should only entrust them with a limited set of responsibilities. Kres is correct in that the more responsibilities that we entrust the government with, the more we are allowing them to dictate our lives.

I do agree that our founders viewed government as a "necessary evil" to be kept small and manageable. The founders knew that if government became too large, our freedom and liberty would be at stake. The founders envisioned a week central government whose major task was the defense of the nation from outside threats. While I believe that there are a few other tasks that make more sense at the federal level, I would love to see the states go back to taking a larger role in the running of their own governments.

[doctordog]

I don't know that I would say we should "fear" the government, but we should only entrust them with a limited set of responsibilities. Kres is correct in that the more responsibilities that we entrust the government with, the more we are allowing them to dictate our lives.

I do agree that our founders viewed government as a "necessary evil" to be kept small and manageable. The founders knew that if government became too large, our freedom and liberty would be at stake. The founders envisioned a week central government whose major task was the defense of the nation from outside threats. While I believe that there are a few other tasks that make more sense at the federal level, I would love to see the states go back to taking a larger role in the running of their own governments.

I agree, since the standard of living varies greatly from one coast to the other. Many states would be in the black if it was not for some of the wild ideas that come out of the larger states with inflated cost and government.

[MichMike]

I don't know that I would say we should "fear" the government, but we should only entrust them with a limited set of responsibilities. Kres is correct in that the more responsibilities that we entrust the government with, the more we are allowing them to dictate our lives.

I do agree that our founders viewed government as a "necessary evil" to be kept small and manageable. The founders knew that if government became too large, our freedom and liberty would be at stake. The founders envisioned a week central government whose major task was the defense of the nation from outside threats. While I believe that there are a few other tasks that make more sense at the federal level, I would love to see the states go back to taking a larger role in the running of their own governments.


I think 99.9% of American's want to keep government small and efficient. Where we disagree (all Americans) is where it should be involved and where it should not.

Some founders did not consider government "evil." Most said one thing, but did another when it came to governing in the "real world" us moderates often reference. Thomas Jefferson was considering the greatest roads and canals project in history be he left as he realized leaving this funtion up to the beloved states led to certain states purposefully designing systems that damaged other states. He thought he might get impeached if he did it. Adams Jr carried out the project.

He bought half the country in an act some still feel is unconstitutional. Reagan was a bigger hypocrite...talked big and governed like a moderate.

As for the semantics...who cares? It's true that a strong democracy ensures government effectiveness. I'm more worried about the attention level of voters vs anthing else.

The truth is solid right conservatives and libertarians will never lead the country...the philosophies don't work.

[kres24GT]

What you have yet to learn is because you "say" something is true does not make it true. Your philosophy essentially grants for profit corporations to destroy the country in the name of profits...stripping a valuable check and balance (us/government) from the equation. This is why nobody is crazy enough to suggest it...why it works nowhere.

Life is much better now than it was with less government involvement and more corporation control by every measure (think 1900).

We should be cautious of corporations and government understanding that democracy is the key to keeping both entities honest players. Both, however, our essential to the great country on the planet...the United States.


LMAO, yes destroying small business is a good thing, good fucking God.

[kres24GT]

I wonder if this fear of government that you have is a regional thing. As a Son of the South I would imagine you live in a culture that does not trust the US Government. I would also guess that this culture developed years ago after the deep south had it's ass handed to them in the Civil War, saw their cities burned to the ground, it's slave economy destroyed and its exploitation by Northerners. This type of distrust is passed generation to generation. This is about the only explanation that makes sense to me. Otherwise why would you keep calling for a type of government that would be disastrous for the country and would cause untold suffering for millions of your fellow Americans?


I am 29, I wasn't alive during the Civil War. My distrust of government comes form common sense and IQ of above 3, both of which you lack.

[doctordog]

I think 99.9% of American's want to keep government small and efficient. Where we disagree (all Americans) is where it should be involved and where it should not.

Some founders did not consider government "evil." Most said one thing, but did another when it came to governing in the "real world" us moderates often reference. Thomas Jefferson was considering the greatest roads and canals project in history be he left as he realized leaving this funtion up to the beloved states led to certain states purposefully designing systems that damaged other states. He thought he might get impeached if he did it. Adams Jr carrying out the project.

He bought half the country in an act some still feel is unconstitutional. Reagan was a bigger hypocrite...talked big and governed like a moderate.

As for the semantics...who cares? It's true that a strong democracy ensures government effectiveness. I'm more worried about the attention level of voters vs anthing else.

The truth is solid right conservatives and libertarians will never lead the country...the philosophies don't work.

You will see changes in the 2010 elections as many independents are regretting their votes and realize a GOP congress will get things done more effectively.

[MichMike]

LMAO, yes destroying small business is a good thing, good trucking God.


Nobody suggested or said that. Similarly, I didn't suggest that government solve all problems yesterday. Interestingly, after you made the claim you ran away again. You do this a lot...throw out a strawman (lie) in an attempt to make your opponent look as extreme as a Libertarian and then run.

I am suggesting that you have not typed an original idea in the history of the board. Like all Libertarians, your comments consist of high level "pie in the sky" rethoric that will never work or strawmen arguments.

We are number 1 now, drastic change is not needed Mr. 2 Percent.

[MichMike]

You will see changes in the 2010 elections as many independents are regretting their votes and realize a GOP congress will get things done more effectively.


How many Libertarians will win House or Senate seats?

[doctordog]

How many Libertarians will win House or Senate seats?

Remains to be seen. There are some there already, but they must run under the guise of partisanship because of the system in place.

[kres24GT]

Nobody suggested or said that. Similarly, I didn't suggest that government solve all problems yesterday. Interestingly, after you made the claim you ran away again. You do this a lot...throw out a strawman (lie) in an attempt to make your opponent look as extreme as a Libertarian and then run.

I am suggesting that you have not typed an original idea in the history of the board. Like all Libertarians, your comments consist of high level "pie in the sky" rethoric that will never work or strawmen arguments.

We are number 1 now, drastic change is not needed Mr. 2 Percent.


The more regulation there is the more big business benefits from lack of competition. This is not a straw man, it is fact that cannot be disputed. Regulation has a cost of compliance, the more regulation there is the fewer companies that can afford to comply with the cost. Smaller companies must go out of business or sell of to a bigger companies until we have nothing but oligopolies.

[MichMike]

The more regulation there is the more big business benefits from lack of competition. This is not a straw man, it is fact that cannot be disputed. Regulation has a cost of compliance, the more regulation there is the fewer companies that can afford to comply with the cost. Smaller companies must go out of business or sell of to a bigger companies until we have nothing but oligopolies.


This is not always the case....only if you follow a strict ideology that doesn't work in the real world is this the case.

In many cases, environmental regulations (not addressed by the free market effectively because the cause of damage is normally not known for years or decades) leads to alternative markets for smaller producers. For example, pressure on big ag to stop using fertilizers and certain pesticides have created many organic farms.

In other cases, banning PCBs and Lead have led to much better health without impacting small businesses at all.

Some regulations create opportunities for small businesses to get into business - most alternative energy companies are much smaller than the Exxons of the world. Now, they may get bought by large corporations in the future, but that is capitalism...it ends in monopoly most of the time.

If anything a lack of government regulation will destroy small businesses...ask Walmart.

[MichMike]

Remains to be seen. There are some there already, but they must run under the guise of partisanship because of the system in place.


List the Libertarians in the Senate for me.

[doctordog]

List the Libertarians in the Senate for me.

They don't claim it, so I couldn't back it up, but they are there.

[GetAClue]

I think 99.9% of American's want to keep government small and efficient. Where we disagree (all Americans) is where it should be involved and where it should not.

Some founders did not consider government "evil." Most said one thing, but did another when it came to governing in the "real world" us moderates often reference. Thomas Jefferson was considering the greatest roads and canals project in history be he left as he realized leaving this funtion up to the beloved states led to certain states purposefully designing systems that damaged other states. He thought he might get impeached if he did it. Adams Jr carrying out the project.
And I agree. If you have read any of my posts on this topic since I have been at this site, one of the things I believe the federal government should be responsible for is our infrastructure. There is something to be said about the consistency of building roads, bridges, electrical grids, etc. not to mention the funding required that the federal government is able to bring to the party.

He bought half the country in an act some still feel is unconstitutional. Reagan was a bigger hypocrite...talked big and governed like a moderate.

As for the semantics...who cares? It's true that a strong democracy ensures government effectiveness. I'm more worried about the attention level of voters vs anthing else.
Not sure what you are referring too when you mention semantics, but I believe it was in reference to the word “Fear”. I don’t really know a better word to describe how I view the relationship between the government and the citizens. Fear may be the wrong word. Maybe a healthy respect while keeping the government small and at an arms length would be a better phrase. I don’t know. However, what I do understand is that if our government does not FEAR the people, they will become emboldened enough to usurp as much power from us that they feel they can get away with. And if that does not scare you, you should really sit back and think about the downsides of the loss of those rights, powers or whatever you want to call it, would really mean.

The truth is solid right conservatives and libertarians will never lead the country...the philosophies don't work.
The truth is, we have not had solid conservative values in our government in well over 100 years. That is why we are in this mess.

[kres24GT]

This is not always the case....only if you follow a strict ideology that doesn't work in the real world is this the case.

In many cases, environmental regulations (not addressed by the free market effectively because the cause of damage is normally not known for years or decades) leads to alternative markets for smaller producers. For example, pressure on big ag to stop using fertilizers and certain pesticides have created many organic farms.

In other cases, banning PCBs and Lead have led to much better health without impacting small businesses at all.

Some regulations create opportunities for small businesses to get into business - most alternative energy companies are much smaller than the Exxons of the world. Now, they may get bought by large corporations in the future, but that is capitalism...it ends in monopoly most of the time.

If anything a lack of government regulation will destroy small businesses...ask Walmart.

Like I said, this is not a disputable fact. In a free market no one forces you to go to wal-mart. In your dream world you have to go to wal-mart, because they are the only company that can afford all the cost of compliance with federal, state, and local regulation.

[MichMike]

Like I said, this is not a disputable fact. In a free market no one forces you to go to wal-mart. In your dream world you have to go to wal-mart, because they are the only company that can afford all the cost of compliance with federal, state, and local regulation.

Another strawman. The market always ends in oligopoly and monopoly. There need to be winners and losers. Again, just because you say something doesn't make it true. The closer we get to an unregulated for profit market, the close we get to four companies running the world with no checks and balances. This is undisputable. Once companies (see entire list of Fortune 1000) get large enough and control price/market/brand, they squeeze the small business...lowering prices to extreme over the short run to crush new companies. Also, the barriers of entry become to vast to compete when large companies dominate. See GM, Ford, Coke. Don't forget about the successful small company that actually does some damage to a large company (like IBM). What do these large companies do when threatened? They buy the little guy. Indeed, your system is much worse than any other for small businesses...heck, anything small. Now respond directly and not with empty ideology.

I do this for a living young one....you have some studying to do.


Balance is key...think private/public sector working together...monitored by society (strong democracy). Stop putting words in my mouth as well. Your position is extreme, mine is today.

2%


Your system will lead to more of this.

[bairdi]

Another strawman. The market always ends in oligopoly and monopoly. There need to be winners and losers. Again, just because you say something doesn't make it true. The closer we get to an unregulated for profit market, the close we get to four companies running the world with no checks and balances. This is undisputable. Once companies (see entire list of Fortune 1000) get large enough and control price/market/brand, they squeeze the small business...lowering prices to extreme over the short run to crush new companies. Also, the barriers of entry become to vast to compete when large companies dominate. See GM, Ford, Coke. Don't forget about the successful small company that actually does some damage to a large company (like IBM). What do these large companies do when threatened? They buy the little guy. Indeed, your system is much worse than any other for small businesses...heck, anything small. Now respond directly and not with empty ideology.

I do this for a living young one....you have some studying to do.


Balance is key...think private/public sector working together...monitored by society (strong democracy). Stop putting words in my mouth as well. Your position is extreme, mine is today.

2%


Your system will lead to more of this.
A history book would be a good place for him to start that studying.

[MichMike]

A history book would be a good place for him to start that studying.


I agree entirely. He is close to master degree age and I hope he takes full advantage of that. Of course, his fear of government might drive him away from the best universities in the world (government funded).

[kres24GT]

Another strawman. The market always ends in oligopoly and monopoly. There need to be winners and losers. Again, just because you say something doesn't make it true. The closer we get to an unregulated for profit market, the close we get to four companies running the world with no checks and balances. This is undisputable. Once companies (see entire list of Fortune 1000) get large enough and control price/market/brand, they squeeze the small business...lowering prices to extreme over the short run to crush new companies. Also, the barriers of entry become to vast to compete when large companies dominate. See GM, Ford, Coke. Don't forget about the successful small company that actually does some damage to a large company (like IBM). What do these large companies do when threatened? They buy the little guy. Indeed, your system is much worse than any other for small businesses...heck, anything small. Now respond directly and not with empty ideology.

I do this for a living young one....you have some studying to do.


Balance is key...think private/public sector working together...monitored by society (strong democracy). Stop putting words in my mouth as well. Your position is extreme, mine is today.

2%


Your system will lead to more of this.


LMAO, strawman, strawman, strawman, that is all you can say. Yes, in your system the big guys buy out the little guys, in a free market little guys can survive and thrive.


A loyal sheep to the end, you will make yourself look unbelievably stupid in your blind support of government.

[kres24GT]

A history book would be a good place for him to start that studying.

Yep, the history books show us, the more control we giver government over our lives, the worse things get for everyone but the super wealthy, no doubt about that.

[GetAClue]

Another strawman. The market always ends in oligopoly and monopoly. There need to be winners and losers. Again, just because you say something doesn't make it true. The closer we get to an unregulated for profit market, the close we get to four companies running the world with no checks and balances. This is undisputable. Once companies (see entire list of Fortune 1000) get large enough and control price/market/brand, they squeeze the small business...lowering prices to extreme over the short run to crush new companies. Also, the barriers of entry become to vast to compete when large companies dominate. See GM, Ford, Coke. Don't forget about the successful small company that actually does some damage to a large company (like IBM). What do these large companies do when threatened? They buy the little guy. Indeed, your system is much worse than any other for small businesses...heck, anything small. Now respond directly and not with empty ideology.

I do this for a living young one....you have some studying to do.


Balance is key...think private/public sector working together...monitored by society (strong democracy). Stop putting words in my mouth as well. Your position is extreme, mine is today.

2%


Your system will lead to more of this.
I don't think most conservatives would advocate for a totally un-regulated free market. There is some regulation that obviously promotes competition. The Sherman Anti-Trust act is one such useful piece of regulation that helped to prevent monopolies from removing competition from the market place.

The point is that while some regulation is good, others have taken that to mean that even more regulation is better. The problem as Kres alludes too is that when you start introducing too much regulation in the market place, you get to the point where it becomes to costly for small business. A lot of times, this increase in regulation comes at the request of some of the larger companies as a way of cementing their place in the market place by keeping the little guys at bay. They are able to accomplish this through high paid lobbyists and all expense paid vacations for elected officials that the smaller companies could never hope to be able to afford.

[kres24GT]

I don't think most conservatives would advocate for a totally un-regulated free market. There is some regulation that obviously promotes competition. The Sherman Anti-Trust act is one such useful piece of regulation that helped to prevent monopolies from removing competition from the market place.

The point is that while some regulation is good, others have taken that to mean that even more regulation is better. The problem as Kres alludes too is that when you start introducing too much regulation in the market place, you get to the point where it becomes to costly for small business. A lot of times, this increase in regulation comes at the request of some of the larger companies as a way of cementing their place in the market place by keeping the little guys at bay. They are able to accomplish this through high paid lobbyists and all expense paid vacations for elected officials that the smaller companies could never hope to be able to afford.


MichMike lives in a dream world where people are educated enough to vote on anything other than what letter is next to the politician's name, which one they''d rather have a beer with, or whichever one promises them the most free shit.

[MichMike]

I don't think most conservatives would advocate for a totally un-regulated free market. There is some regulation that obviously promotes competition. The Sherman Anti-Trust act is one such useful piece of regulation that helped to prevent monopolies from removing competition from the market place.

The point is that while some regulation is good, others have taken that to mean that even more regulation is better. The problem as Kres alludes too is that when you start introducing too much regulation in the market place, you get to the point where it becomes to costly for small business. A lot of times, this increase in regulation comes at the request of some of the larger companies as a way of cementing their place in the market place by keeping the little guys at bay. They are able to accomplish this through high paid lobbyists and all expense paid vacations for elected officials that the smaller companies could never hope to be able to afford.


There is no question at all that large businesses influences government. An active democracy (and we are more active now than 15 years ago) can safeguard against that.

The problem with eliminating the types of regulation that Ron Paul and libertarians want to is that the GOOD regulation and agencies will go away. Hell, even the damn Cato Institute acknowledges that the EPA did good work after being created. To think that Libertarians are going to improve the situation is like thinking that Big Tobacco would have admitted smoking causes cancer without the government beating them down....or GM and lead or Monsanto and PCBs

Your statement reflects why Libertarianism is Pie in and Sky...it goes waaaaayyyyy to far.


Think moderation...it's a balancing act.

[MichMike]

Yep, the history books show us, the more control we giver government over our lives, the worse things get for everyone but the super wealthy, no doubt about that.

Well, pretty much a lie.

The standard of living for almost every person in America has improved dramatically post 1900...and government has grown over the entire period.

You go live in 1888 and I'll stay here. Deal?

Now then, history does show that when corporations and governments are left unchecked...things can get ugly. This is true.

[MichMike]

MichMike lives in a dream world where people are educated enough to vote on anything other than what letter is next to the politician's name, which one they''d rather have a beer with, or whichever one promises them the most free shit.


Why can't these people find the "L"

[MichMike]

LMAO, strawman, strawman, strawman, that is all you can say. Yes, in your system the big guys buy out the little guys, in a free market little guys can survive and thrive.


A loyal sheep to the end, you will make yourself look unbelievably stupid in your blind support of government.


What? Again, high level hot air. You've exposed yourself - by the complete lack of historical reference or proof over months - as the blind one. Are you cleaning Ron Paul's shoes at this minute?

[bairdi]

Yep, the history books show us, the more control we giver government over our lives, the worse things get for everyone but the super wealthy, no doubt about that.
What history book would that be? I was suggesting an American History book. You might want to start with the 19th century and look up the term "Robber Baron."

[MichMike]

Get A Clue states

"That is why we are in this mess."


I state:

The country is the greatest on earth...the greatest ever. I don't want to live anywhere else. We have huge opportunity areas and always will...like any society, but life is better now than 100 years ago.


I report and you decide.


Beloved,

MichMike

[kres24GT]

Get A Clue states

"That is why we are in this mess."


I state:

The country is the greatest on earth...the greatest ever. I don't want to live anywhere else. We have huge opportunity areas and always will...like any society, but life is better now than 100 years ago.


I report and you decide.


Beloved,

MichMike


So health care is great? We are good there, right? Fighting pointless wars abroad, all good there too, correct? Corporate interests influencing legislation and regulation, good there, right?

[Citizen]

MichMike is retarded.

[kres24GT]

Well, pretty much a lie.

The standard of living for almost every person in America has improved dramatically post 1900...and government has grown over the entire period.

You go live in 1888 and I'll stay here. Deal?

Now then, history does show that when corporations and governments are left unchecked...things can get ugly. This is true.


Government is 100% unchecked right now.

[kres24GT]

MichMike is retarded.


I would put him with bairdi, Chief, and frank as one of the dumbest posters here.

[MichMike]

So health care is great? We are good there, right? Fighting pointless wars abroad, all good there too, correct? Corporate interests influencing legislation and regulation, good there, right?


Another made up argument. Did you see the comments about "huge opportunity areas?"

Unlike your Libertarian world, nothing is perfect, black or white. I understand you folks like simple answers, but you are ridiculous.

[MichMike]

Government is 100% unchecked right now.


Prove that please

[MichMike]

I would put him with bairdi, Chief, and frank as one of the dumbest posters here.


You needed that branch big guy. You should be given Citizen a back-rub right now.

[ROdger Right]

Prove that please

Theres a thing called check and balances in this country. Used mostly by the legislature and executive brances. When they are both are on the same side this is what we call going unchecked.

Since the majority of the media is also on that side then we call this a disporionate balance and it can not be healthy or good for this country.

[MichMike]

Theres a thing called check and balances in this country. Used mostly by the legislature and executive brances. When they are both are on the same side this is what we call going unchecked.

Since the majority of the media is also on that side then we call this a disporionate balance and it can not be healthy or good for this country.


Did you forget democracy? We are the government.

Get active for your country...

[Captain Obvious]

MichMike is retarded.

You're being generous.

[kres24GT]

Did you forget democracy? We are the government.

Get active for your country...

If not for the two party system you'd have a point.

[foxbaron]

The fact that the gun loving righties are the people driving that cost (not Obama) brings me much joy.

In 8 years, after Obama does nothing significant on gun control (maybe beefing up FBI background checks), how will these people view their panic driven investment?


Come on, this is funny!!!


They will probably view it as a good investment because you never know what is coming from the government next.

There is no such thing as having too many guns or too much ammo.

Its called being prepared not just against what the government may do but what your fellow citizens will do if society breaks down.

Two good examples are the LA Riots and Katrina.

You will be responsible for your own safety as well as that of your family. Calling 911 isn't going to get you the help you need when you need it. Best be prepared to provide it yourself.

Not sure about you liberal guys but I certainly feel comfortable that I will be able to defend myself and family and am able to do so as I speak.

Maybe I just don't like the idea of being someone's victim.

[doctordog]

They will probably view it as a good investment because you never know what is coming from the government next.

There is no such thing as having too many guns or too much ammo.

Its called being prepared not just against what the government may do but what your fellow citizens will do if society breaks down.

Two good examples are the LA Riots and Katrina.

You will be responsible for your own safety as well as that of your family. Calling 911 isn't going to get you the help you need when you need it. Best be prepared to provide it yourself.

Not sure about you liberal guys but I certainly feel comfortable that I will be able to defend myself and family and am able to do so as I speak.

Maybe I just don't like the idea of being someone's victim.

Couldn't have said it better myself.:thumbsup:

[Hog Trash]

I wonder if this fear of government that you have is a regional thing. As a Son of the South I would imagine you live in a culture that does not trust the US Government. I would also guess that this culture developed years ago after the deep south had it's ass handed to them in the Civil War, saw their cities burned to the ground, it's slave economy destroyed and its exploitation by Northerners. This type of distrust is passed generation to generation. This is about the only explanation that makes sense to me. Otherwise why would you keep calling for a type of government that would be disastrous for the country and would cause untold suffering for millions of your fellow Americans?Bairdi has presented the perfect opportunity to make an important point.

Conservatives fear all government...Why?...Because conservatives realize people lie and the good sometimes go bad.

This includes government...Especially government because they have the power to cause the most damage to our lives.

Liberals only fear conservative government and completely trust their Democrat Party or any liberal that happens to be elected to office.

That is why the left has been designated as the political force to be responsible for disarming America...They are blindly trusted by their liberal voter base.

They do not see any danger of oppression from their side...Only the conservative side of the isle is perceived as a threat to their freedom.

They would hand over their guns and ours on the command of their trusted governments word without hesitation...And they call conservatives foolish.

[Hog Trash]

Fear any elected official who attempts to disarm you or restrict your gun or ammunition rights in any way.

Why?...Because for some reason they fear the honest law-abiding citizen who is armed.

Why would anyone in government fear the honest American citizens they are supposed to represent?

Only criminals present a threat to anyone and outlawing guns will not disarm a criminal anymore than drug prohibition prevents drug use.

Politicians are very aware of this but thank goodness for them, liberals are to stupid to realize it or their lies, propaganda and rhetoric wouldn't work.