Michael Moore declares all-out war on capitalism

[Citizen]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/money_co/2009/09/director-michael-moore-now-wants-nothing-less-than-the-complete-overthrow-of-the-modern-capitalist-system--from-reuters-in.html

Director Michael Moore now wants nothing less than the complete overthrow of the modern capitalist system.

From Reuters in Venice today:

Capitalism is evil. That is the conclusion U.S. documentary maker Michael Moore comes to in his latest movie "Capitalism: A Love Story," which premieres at the Venice Film Festival Sunday. Blending his trademark humor with tragic individual stories, archive footage and publicity stunts, the 55-year-old launches an all-out attack on the capitalist system, arguing that it benefits the rich and condemns millions to poverty.

"Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil," the two-hour movie concludes. "You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for all people and that something is democracy."

Moore’s long-awaited film, which will open in L.A. and New York on Sept. 23 and nationwide on Oct. 2, is in part his post-mortem on the global financial system crash that began a year ago this month with the collapse of brokerage Lehman Bros.

But the film takes on much more than the usual cast of blood-sucking bankers to make the case against capitalism, delving into unrewarded worker productivity, vultures who make their living off foreclosed homes and horror stories from a privately owned juvenile correctional facility in Pennsylvania.

Time magazine’s Mary Corliss writes from Venice:

"Capitalism: A Love Story" does not quite measure up to Moore's "Sicko" in its cumulative power, and it is unlikely to equal "Fahrenheit 9/11" in political impact. In many ways, though, this is Moore's magnum opus: the grandest statement of his career-long belief that big business is screwing the hard-working little guy while government connives in the atrocity.

As he loudly tried to confront General Motors CEO Roger Smith in "Roger & Me" in 1989, and pleaded through a bull horn to get officials at Guantanamo to give medical treatment to surviving victims of "9/11," so in "Capitalism" he attempts to make a citizen's arrest of AIG executives, and puts tape around the New York Stock Exchange building, declaring it a crime scene.

But Corliss also questions whether Moore’s call for a grass-roots revolution can make it past the theater exit door:

At the end Moore says, "I refuse to live in a country like this -- and I'm not leaving." But this call to arms demands more than a ringleader; it requires a ring, an engaged citizenry who are mad enough not to take it any more. That's unlikely to happen. Moore's films are among the top-grossing documentaries in history because they are pertinent populist entertainments. The question remains: Will "Capitalism: A Love Story" rouse the rabble to revolt? Or will audiences sit appreciatively through the movie, then go home and play the cat-in-the-toilet [YouTube] video?

All I have to say for now is I like having toilet paper.

[Captain Obvious]

Moore is a fat fucking load.

I guess his latest films sucked so bad he needs to find a way to pimp his living.

If he hates it so fucking much here, he can shack up with Castro. He likes the healthcare there - let them pay for his fucking bypass surgery since that fat fuck is probably due.

[doctordog]

If he would simply mistake preparation H for tooth paste we might never have to hear his voice again:lmao2:

[Citizen]

I also find this being a disgustingly putrid stench of irony with the author being a fat millionaire pig. With all the shit from the food he eats he should count his blessings that he has toilet paper to wipe his ass with.

[Cookie]

I also find this being a disgustingly putrid stench of irony with the author being a fat millionaire pig. With all the shit from the food he eats he should count his blessings that he has toilet paper to wipe his ass with.

Ignorant asswipes like Moore think they would be immune to the effects of communism if it did replace capitalism.

I guess he doesn't realize that if it really did happen, his millions of $$$ and millions in property would automatically be seized by the state.

Next, since there won't be a market for his films, and he wouldn't have money to make them anyway, the state would decide how to put him to work....gotta get in there and work with/for the masses. Perhaps a job taking tickets down at the bus station might be appropriate...
________
Herbal vaporizer forum (http://vaporizer.org/forum/herbal-vaporizers/)

[chao]

Ignorant asswipes like Moore think they would be immune to the effects of communism if it did replace capitalism.
Ignorant asswipes like you like to insert the word 'communism' when it doesn't exist in the OP.

[Bill Cosby]

Welp............... Looks like the big O' Moore plot is up.. Them righties is just to damn smart.... Oh well..........

Pls don't tell anyone else.......

[Mason66]

Ignorant asswipes like Moore think they would be immune to the effects of communism if it did replace capitalism.

I guess he doesn't realize that if it really did happen, his millions of $$$ and millions in property would automatically be seized by the state.

Next, since there won't be a market for his films, and he wouldn't have money to make them anyway, the state would decide how to put him to work....gotta get in there and work with/for the masses. Perhaps a job taking tickets down at the bus station might be appropriate...

The state wouldn't put him to work. They would put him in a camp of some kind or in jail.

Moore makes movies against anything he deems worthy including the government, especially the government, and for that he would be put away.

[Cookie]

Welp............... Looks like the big O' Moore plot is up.. Them righties is just to damn smart.... Oh well..........

Pls don't tell anyone else.......

No, we righties don't like our country compared to the likes of Cuba and other inferior nations. The reference doesn't include the people, only the system(s) of government that Moore seems to think are so great.
________
Built Tough Series (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Built_Ford_Tough_Series)

[Cookie]

The state wouldn't put him to work. They would put him in a camp of some kind or in jail.

Moore makes movies against anything he deems worthy including the government, especially the government, and for that he would be put away.

Maybe. But he ought to be out there working for the people, since that's what he thinks he's doing now. Give him what he seems to be asking for.



I guess he could crank out propaganda films for the communist brass.
________
Volcano vaporizer (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/volcano)

[John Galt]

But the film takes on much more than the usual cast of blood-sucking bankers to make the case against capitalism, delving into unrewarded worker productivity, vultures who make their living off foreclosed homes and horror stories from a privately owned juvenile correctional facility in Pennsylvania


I'm reminded of McCain during the election, when he pointed to the many opportunities for "good deals" with all of the mortgage defaults creating a glut of unoccupied homes.

Now THAT'S what I call an answer the the economic woes of this country.


I'm not a big fan of Moore, mainly because his selective editing equates to embellishing to make his point.


That doesn't necessarily mean that the issues he brings to the fore aren't real.


I see nothing in the OP that mentions communism? There's either capitalism, or communism...with nothing in between?

[Bill Cosby]

No, we righties don't like our country compared to the likes of Cuba and other inferior nations. The reference doesn't include the people, only the system(s) of government that Moore seems to think are so great.

I guess we will see when the movie comes out........... I plan on seeing it...

I guess you won't.....

I challenge you & everyone here to watch it.... :thumbsup:

Capitalism is not perfect & neither is the USA or anyone in it....

Perhaps things can be made better for all....... They system now seems to benefit a very few while the rest us pay for it...

Moore is not a commie or a socialist.... If anything I would call him an old school Democrat... He is personally more concern about getting folks in Flint & Detroit back to work than pumping blood into a dead & debunked ideology...

I would further add: assuming you see him as the "enemy" or a threat- never underestimate your enimies.... & What better way to know what vile evil they are up to then watch them do it???

YOu can debunk, or not, as you go...:thumbsup:

Hope you are having a fun holiday weekend...

[MintJulep]

I see nothing in the OP that mentions communism? There's either capitalism, or communism...with nothing in between?No, but with his railing against Capitalism, isn't it safe to assume he either prefers Communism or Socialism, which is nothing but a watered down version of Communism?

What did you take it to mean? Maybe I'm missing something here.

[CosmicRocker]

I'm reminded of McCain during the election, when he pointed to the many opportunities for "good deals" with all of the mortgage defaults creating a glut of unoccupied homes.

Now THAT'S what I call an answer the the economic woes of this country.


I'm not a big fan of Moore, mainly because his selective editing equates to embellishing to make his point.


That doesn't necessarily mean that the issues he brings to the fore aren't real.


I see nothing in the OP that mentions communism? There's either capitalism, or communism...with nothing in between?

here's a quote:
Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil," the two-hour movie concludes. "You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for all people and that something is democracy

Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system. :banghead:

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"

[Bill Cosby]

here's a quote:


Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system. :banghead:

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"

No my friend Democracy is not just a political system.. It is much Moore:lmao2: than just that... I have not seen the movie & neither have you......... You are taking an isolated quote from a two hour movie.. No context & in total ignorance of the two hours leading up to the line...:dunno:

Let him that has watched cast the first stone........... :thumbsup:

de·moc·ra·cy (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

[doctordog]

No my friend Democracy is not just a political system.. It is much Moore:lmao2: than just that... I have not seen the movie & neither have you......... You are taking an isolated quote from a two hour movie.. No context & in total ignorance of the two hours leading up to the line...:dunno:

Let him that has watched cast the first stone........... :thumbsup:

de·moc·ra·cy (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

Sorry, I don't buy the National Enquirer and I won't be watching a movie produced by a guy with similar values.

[Bill Cosby]

Sorry, I don't buy the National Enquirer and I won't be watching a movie produced by a guy with similar values.

I am not surprised..... http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/eduwonkette/upload/2008/01/do_schools_matter/head%20in%20sand.gif

Tell yea what.... If there is a right wing wackO movie out there I am up to the challenge. I will watch it if you watch the Moore movie..

:thumbsup:

You on???

[doctordog]

I am not surprised..... http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/eduwonkette/upload/2008/01/do_schools_matter/head%20in%20sand.gif

Tell yea what.... If there is a right wing wackO movie out there I am up to the challenge. I will watch it if you watch the Moore movie..

:thumbsup:

You on???

Sure, just watch Beck for 3 days in a row:thumbsup:

[doctordog]

Can you tell the difference between Mike and Bruce?

803

804

[Cookie]

Sure, just watch Beck for 3 days in a row:thumbsup:

One week. ;)
________
Ford cvh engine specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_CVH_engine)

[Cookie]

Can you tell the difference between Mike and Bruce?

803

804


There is a strong family resemblance. :D
________
Buy roor bongs (http://glassbongs.org/)

[Binky]

I guess we will see when the movie comes out........... I plan on seeing it...

I guess you won't.....

I challenge you & everyone here to watch it.... :thumbsup:

Capitalism is not perfect & neither is the USA or anyone in it....

Perhaps things can be made better for all....... They system now seems to benefit a very few while the rest us pay for it...

Moore is not a commie or a socialist.... If anything I would call him an old school Democrat... He is personally more concern about getting folks in Flint & Detroit back to work than pumping blood into a dead & debunked ideology...

I would further add: assuming you see him as the "enemy" or a threat- never underestimate your enimies.... & What better way to know what vile evil they are up to then watch them do it???

YOu can debunk, or not, as you go...:thumbsup:

Hope you are having a fun holiday weekend...


Sounds logical to me. Know thy enemy as thyself. He grew up in Flint and still has family there, so my guess he is trying to enlighten others as millions don't know what's going on around them.

Capitalism was created by people. Therefore, since people are not perfect, neither is it. Nor any other system.

[CosmicRocker]

No my friend Democracy is not just a political system.. It is much Moore:lmao2: than just that... I have not seen the movie & neither have you......... You are taking an isolated quote from a two hour movie.. No context & in total ignorance of the two hours leading up to the line...:dunno:

Let him that has watched cast the first stone........... :thumbsup:

de·moc·ra·cy (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.Look at your definition, amigo.
Where do you see ANYTHING relating to commerce?

Granted political systems can be democratic, and have a socialized (i.e. Socialism) economy.

But to say "replace capitalism with democracy" is a non sequitur.

[Citizen]

I have more intellectual respect for Johnny Knoxville than Michael Moore if you catch my drift. You can Lampoon capitalism all you want, the fact of the matter is if capitalism wasn't killed off by FDR in this country it certainly was maimed. At the very least its been hemorrhaging ever since.

[John Galt]

No, but with his railing against Capitalism, isn't it safe to assume he either prefers Communism or Socialism, which is nothing but a watered down version of Communism?

What did you take it to mean? Maybe I'm missing something here.
When was Democracy removed from the list of choices?

[John Galt]

Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system. :banghead:

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"
And what do you call it when corporations bribe the leaders in a Democracy?

Or...pay out billions of dollars/year, to make sure the corrupted leaders get re-ected?


We've got the best system money can buy

[Bill Cosby]

Look at your definition, amigo.
Where do you see ANYTHING relating to commerce?
.

Ok thnX.... That is exactly what I thought Mr. Moore meant.... That democracy is about the will of the ppl, not a few fucking tyrants or capitalist exploiting the rest of us.... :hi:

They define freedumb-dumbocracy as their right to exploit me..... I define it as my right to tell them to FO....

I already challenged Dog & I am now challenging you..........

To watch this film... beginning to end........ In turn I will watch any right wing wackO film you like....

You game???:thumbsup:

[CosmicRocker]

And what do you call it when corporations bribe the leaders in a Democracy?

Or...pay out billions of dollars/year, to make sure the corrupted leaders get re-ected?


We've got the best system money can buy
I call it corruption, or influence peddling..

Look. I actually thought Sicko, and Bowling for Columbine (title) were well done.
They were from a liberal perspective, but i don't have a problem with that.
Happens all the time, an author/screenwriter is free to make a movie to help support their point of view.

I'm simply pointing out the absurd son sequiter that "capitalism should replace democracy."

[Bill Cosby]

And what do you call it when corporations bribe the leaders in a Democracy?

Or...pay out billions of dollars/year, to make sure the corrupted leaders get re-ected?


We've got the best system money can buy

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Is that a John Goti quote??? lol

[doctordog]

I call it corruption, or influence peddling..

Look. I actually thought Sicko, and Bowling for Columbine (title) were well done.
They were from a liberal perspective, but i don't have a problem with that.
Happens all the time, an author/screenwriter is free to make a movie to help support their point of view.

I'm simply pointing out the absurd son sequiter that "capitalism should replace democracy."

Columbine, come on CR, he blamed K-mart, for christ sake, K-mart. That is like blaming bic because you poked yourself in the eye with one of their pens.:banghead:

[CosmicRocker]

Ok thnX.... That is exactly what I thought Mr. Moore meant.... That democracy is about the will of the ppl, not a few fucking tyrants or capitalist exploiting the rest of us.... :hi:

They define freedumb-dumbocracy as their right to exploit me..... I define it as my right to tell them to FO....

I already challenged Dog & I am now challenging you..........

To watch this film... beginning to end........ In turn I will watch any right wing wackO film you like....

You game???:thumbsup:
'll watch it, or at least read the reviews. depends what the feedback is if it's worth while to see.
I'm non-partisian, but more importanly non-idelogical.
I'll watch anything well done, by any idelogy, even though i think having an idelogical bias is.....well... BIASED!

No need for you to watch anything you don't cotton to.

But capitalism is always going to produce rich and poor.
someone once said it's a shitty system, but the only one that gets people to go to work.
The problem is the middle class has been getting the shaft, and slowly squeezed out by corp profits, and moving jobs overseas.

Corp profits are not intrinsically bad, in fct US owned
( or public stockholders ) increases the wealth in the USA.

I mean we DO want to create weath -correct??

Look at China. Communist gov't that never advanced China with their 10 year plans, etc.
as soon as they went capitalist ( state capitalism) they became a world economic power.

[Captain Obvious]

Look at China. Communist gov't that never advanced China with their 10 year plans, etc.
as soon as they went capitalist ( state capitalism) they became a world economic power.

They're a world economic power simply because of their population size.

You have to look at the standard of living. Per capita thing.

[CosmicRocker]

Columbine, come on CR, he blamed K-mart, for christ sake, K-mart. That is like blaming bic because you poked yourself in the eye with one of their pens.:banghead:
I only saw parts of it, highlited on TV, I can't even recall it, but it seemed to resonate.

I'm not much on movies, preferring books.

[John Galt]

I call it corruption, or influence peddling..

Look. I actually thought Sicko, and Bowling for Columbine (title) were well done.
They were from a liberal perspective, but i don't have a problem with that.
Happens all the time, an author/screenwriter is free to make a movie to help support their point of view.

I'm simply pointing out the absurd son sequiter that "capitalism should replace democracy."
You missed my point, as did Minty.


Just because he rails against Capitalism...which, btw, has a much different definition nowadays....why do you guys delete the word Democracy from his vocabulary?

If Big Business has found a way to corrupt Democracy..ie...Corporatocracy, it automatically means that anyone who has a problem with it, is a communist?


You guys aren't making any sense. Must be from the fertilizer at those grass roots gatherings.

[CosmicRocker]

They're a world economic power simply because of their population size.

You have to look at the standard of living. Per capita thing.
As Dung Chow Ping once said something like, “It is honorable to be rich."

He's the one who reformed the Communist economy into a capitalistic one.

Before that they were still a huge population, but "the sick man of Asia"

[Captain Obvious]

As Dung Chow Ping once said something like, “It is honorable to be rich."

He's the one who reformed the Communist economy into a capitalistic one.

Before that they were still a huge population, but "the sick man of Asia"

Explain to me how China is a capitalistic system.

[CosmicRocker]

You missed my point, as did Minty.


Just because he rails against Capitalism...which, btw, has a much different definition nowadays....why do you guys delete the word Democracy from his vocabulary?

If Big Business has found a way to corrupt Democracy..ie...Corporatocracy, it automatically means that anyone who has a problem with it, is a communist?


You guys aren't making any sense. Must be from the fertilizer at those grass roots gatherings.
I never called Moore a Communst.
I said his words comparing democracy to capitalism was a non sequitur.

You know the meaning?
Where the object being referenced, has no relation, and is incomparable to the previous reference. ( something like that)

If he was gonna compare capitalism , to anything it would have to be Communism ( not as practiced in the USSR,with the apparachiks but as defined by Marx )

or Socialism as practiced more closely by western Europe.

I hate to say it John. But your post there really wasn't clear.

Just because he rails against Capitalism...which, btw, has a much different definition nowadays....why do you guys delete the word Democracy from his vocabulary I fail to see what you're trying to say.

[CosmicRocker]

Explain to me how China is a capitalistic system.
They were State Capitalists, with a mix of command economy at first, but are becoming more of an enterpenurial based economy.

You do know China buys and sells for profits, and private citizens can start their own businesses?

Isn't that the definition of a capitalist economy?

[Captain Obvious]

They were State Capitalists, with a mix of command economy at first, but are becoming more of an enterpenurial based economy.

You do know China buys and sells for profits, and private citizens can start their own businesses?

Isn't that the definition of a capitalist economy?

Groovy.

Who owns the companies?

[Bill Cosby]

'll watch it, or at least read the reviews. depends what the feedback is if it's worth while to see.
I'm non-partisian, but more importanly non-idelogical.
I'll watch anything well done, by any idelogy, even though i think having an idelogical bias is.....well... BIASED!

No need for you to watch anything you don't cotton to.

But capitalism is always going to produce rich and poor.
someone once said it's a shitty system, but the only one that gets people to go to work.
The problem is the middle class has been getting the shaft, and slowly squeezed out by corp profits, and moving jobs overseas.

Corp profits are not intrinsically bad, in fct US owned
( or public stockholders ) increases the wealth in the USA.

I mean we DO want to create weath -correct??

Look at China. Communist gov't that never advanced China with their 10 year plans, etc.
as soon as they went capitalist ( state capitalism) they became a world economic power.

:thumbsup: Sounds like a strong maybe??? :lmao2:

We got plenty of time to think about it..

Listening/watching views we agree w/ is entertaining....

Listening/watching views we disagree w/ is challenging...

I know what I would pick... What about you???? :D

Cya when it come out my friend.... :thumbsup:

[CosmicRocker]

Groovy.
Who owns the companies?

excellent point -had to goggle it:
http://www.chinadetail.com/Business/InvestmentChinaCompanyOwnership.php


The ownership structure and legal status of the Chinese companies are defined by the PRC national laws.
It can be simply categorized into two groups: the domestic companies in which the owners are pure Chinese legal entities or individuals, while the foreign invested companies, in which some or all investors maybe foreign legal entities or individuals. The legal structure and their governance of companies in China evolving rapidly in recent years to reflect the progress of China 's legal, market and economic developments.

Types of Chinese Domestic Companies

Sole proprietorship company: it is a type of company that is legally set up inside China and be invested by a natural person. The company and all its properties are owned by the investor. The owner of the company is liable in an unlimited capacity for its debts to the extent of his personal property.

State-owned enterprise: It is also known as state-run enterprise. T he property of the state-owned enterprise belongs to the nation, as indicated by the name. The nation appoints a management team to be responsible for the business operations. The enterprise has the legal person status and is responsible for its profit and loss.

Collective owned enterprise: also known as collectively-run enterprise, it may have different scopes of the "collective". For example, township collectively-owned enterprise is owned by the town; a unit collectively-owned enterprise is owned by a particular unit or a group of people. The ownership of collectively-run enterprise belongs to the defined group of people but no quantitative number of ownership defined. This is different with joint and stock-holding enterprise.

Joint-stock company: also known as stock company, refers to a company or corporation whose capital is divided into shares. The ownership is defined in transferable shares of stock. Any legal entities or individuals may invest in the company in exchange for the proportional amount of shares.

The foreign invested companies

The foreign investments are basically divided into direct investment and other means of investment. In terms of the direct investment, there are Sino-foreign joint ventures, joint exploitation and wholly foreign-owned enterprises, foreign-funded share-holding companies and joint development. The other means of investment includes compensation trade and processing and assembling.
.

Sino-Foreign Cooperative enterprises: also known as contractual cooperation enterprises, they are formed in China with joint capitals or terms of cooperation by foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals with Chinese legal entities and individuals. The rights and obligations of different parties are embedded in the contract. To establish a cooperative enterprise, the foreign party, typically, supplies all or most of the capital and technologies, while Chinese party supplies land, factory buildings, and useful facilities, and also some supply a certain amount of capital, too. Cooperative businesses must have a set term of cooperation. The liability for such business is limited to the investment to the business.

Wholly foreign-owned enterprises: They are exclusively invested by foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals in China in accordance with laws of China . The wholly foreign funded enterprises often take the form of limited liability company.

Foreign-funded share-holding companies: Foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals can form foreign funded share-holding companies in China together with Chinese legal entities. The share-holding company is formed by equal shares. Shareholders will take due responsibilities for the company according to shares purchased; company will take responsibilities for all its debts through all its assets and the Chinese and foreign shareholders will hold the shares of the company. The qualified enterprises can also apply to issue A & B shares in the Chinese stock market or listing abroad

[Captain Obvious]

excellent point -had to goggle it:
http://www.chinadetail.com/Business/InvestmentChinaCompanyOwnership.php


The ownership structure and legal status of the Chinese companies are defined by the PRC national laws.
It can be simply categorized into two groups: the domestic companies in which the owners are pure Chinese legal entities or individuals, while the foreign invested companies, in which some or all investors maybe foreign legal entities or individuals. The legal structure and their governance of companies in China evolving rapidly in recent years to reflect the progress of China 's legal, market and economic developments.

Types of Chinese Domestic Companies

Sole proprietorship company: it is a type of company that is legally set up inside China and be invested by a natural person. The company and all its properties are owned by the investor. The owner of the company is liable in an unlimited capacity for its debts to the extent of his personal property.

State-owned enterprise: It is also known as state-run enterprise. T he property of the state-owned enterprise belongs to the nation, as indicated by the name. The nation appoints a management team to be responsible for the business operations. The enterprise has the legal person status and is responsible for its profit and loss.

Collective owned enterprise: also known as collectively-run enterprise, it may have different scopes of the "collective". For example, township collectively-owned enterprise is owned by the town; a unit collectively-owned enterprise is owned by a particular unit or a group of people. The ownership of collectively-run enterprise belongs to the defined group of people but no quantitative number of ownership defined. This is different with joint and stock-holding enterprise.

Joint-stock company: also known as stock company, refers to a company or corporation whose capital is divided into shares. The ownership is defined in transferable shares of stock. Any legal entities or individuals may invest in the company in exchange for the proportional amount of shares.

The foreign invested companies

The foreign investments are basically divided into direct investment and other means of investment. In terms of the direct investment, there are Sino-foreign joint ventures, joint exploitation and wholly foreign-owned enterprises, foreign-funded share-holding companies and joint development. The other means of investment includes compensation trade and processing and assembling.
.

Sino-Foreign Cooperative enterprises: also known as contractual cooperation enterprises, they are formed in China with joint capitals or terms of cooperation by foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals with Chinese legal entities and individuals. The rights and obligations of different parties are embedded in the contract. To establish a cooperative enterprise, the foreign party, typically, supplies all or most of the capital and technologies, while Chinese party supplies land, factory buildings, and useful facilities, and also some supply a certain amount of capital, too. Cooperative businesses must have a set term of cooperation. The liability for such business is limited to the investment to the business.

Wholly foreign-owned enterprises: They are exclusively invested by foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals in China in accordance with laws of China . The wholly foreign funded enterprises often take the form of limited liability company.

Foreign-funded share-holding companies: Foreign companies, enterprises, other economic organizations and individuals can form foreign funded share-holding companies in China together with Chinese legal entities. The share-holding company is formed by equal shares. Shareholders will take due responsibilities for the company according to shares purchased; company will take responsibilities for all its debts through all its assets and the Chinese and foreign shareholders will hold the shares of the company. The qualified enterprises can also apply to issue A & B shares in the Chinese stock market or listing abroad

Great.

So the average Ying there can climb up out of the fucking rice paddies and open a Starbucks franchise.

That's not fucking capitalism no matter what wiki-definition says. China has it's first fucking billionaire, a couple of them actually - and there's nothing capitalistic about it. Those guys are chummy with the fucking political powers. They say the wrong fucking thing about anything and bang, they're done.

[John Galt]

here's a quote:


Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system. :banghead:

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"
Ok...let's start from the beginning.


What did you mean by this post?

[CosmicRocker]

Great.

So the average Ying there can climb up out of the fucking rice paddies and open a Starbucks franchise.

That's not fucking capitalism no matter what wiki-definition says. China has it's first fucking billionaire, a couple of them actually - and there's nothing capitalistic about it. Those guys are chummy with the fucking political powers. They say the wrong fucking thing about anything and bang, they're done.
Communism is the form of gov't, but as you can see economics may be state owned, parnerships, or even entrepenurial. Or a combination of factors.

They do what is effective,what works for their society, having no recent history of private property. So you have to call it something like State capitalism.

Did you see the Olymipics? Did you see a modern vibrant economy?
If you didn't just look at the fact they own a lot of our debt.

You dismiss them at your own peril.
Their GDP was inreasing at unprecendented rates - like 6% a quarter, before the current recession.
All this has happened in about the last 20 years.

[CosmicRocker]

Ok...let's start from the beginning.


What did you mean by this post?

Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system.

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"

The first 2 sentences are facts, i guess you understand the faulty comparisons of democracy vs. capitalism? - right - a non sequitur?

My last sentence was saying " If you're gonna damn capitalism, then at least have to courage to compare it with an economic system, not a political one".

If he would have said capitalism is evil compared to Socialism, or Communism, it woulld have been a provacative statement, easily seized upon.

So ( IMHO) he tried to slip past that, by using "democracy"

either that or he's dumb as a post.

[Captain Obvious]

Communism is the form of gov't, but as you can see economics may be state owned, parnerships, or even entrepenurial. Or a combination of factors.

They do what is effective,what works for their society, having no recent history of private property. So you have to call it something like State capitalism.

Did you see the Olymipics? Did you see a modern vibrant economy?
If you didn't just look at the fact they own a lot of our debt.

You dismiss them at your own peril.
Their GDP was inreasing at unprecendented rates - like 6% a quarter, before the current recession.
All this has happened in about the last 20 years.

Olympics?

Give me a fucking break. It's bad enough the Chinese shove that shit down the throats of their isolated citizens, people with access to real information who buy into that fucking bullshit makes it a complete fucking farce.

Capitalism defines ownership by people. That is far from the case in China, a small segment of their population - the government and a selected few enjoy that prosperity. The masses still live in squander.

Sorry chief, that's not capitalism.

[MintJulep]

Capt Obvious, you're a roll tonight. :lmao2:

[Hog Trash]

Prime Minister Tony Blair was once asked by a Parliament member

"Why do you believe in America so much"? Mr Blair replied:

"A simple way to take measure of a country

is to look at how many want in and how many want out"

http://www.dcjunkies.com/showthread.php?t=5102

[CosmicRocker]

Olympics?

Give me a fucking break. It's bad enough the Chinese shove that shit down the throats of their isolated citizens, people with access to real information who buy into that fucking bullshit makes it a complete fucking farce.

Capitalism defines ownership by people. That is far from the case in China, a small segment of their population - the government and a selected few enjoy that prosperity. The masses still live in squander.

Sorry chief, that's not capitalism.
"The Masses" - you wanna be a little more specific in your population description??

They " didn't just crawl out of rice paddies" or whatever semi-racist plain uniformed staement you made.

do you have a CLUE of either ancient or contemporay Sino relations, or Chinese culture?

Here's the timeline we're looking at - say since the PRC was founded in '49.
Skip ancient China, even though the various dynasies were wealthy and advancedd beyond most of the world for their history.

After Mao dies, Ping understand China has to compete globally, as they get acces to western markets by trade treaty,
they use dumping, monopoloies, and intellectual property theft , subsidized by the gov't to capture a market.
Temporary losses to gain market shares

Now they tailor their corporations to the states guidelines.
Like everything else in Chinese bureacracy , or cultural, nothing is transparent.
That's why the numerous types of corps. I posted is like that.
Shanghi, Beijing, Canton, Guangzhou, and every city has a thriving busines district.

The whole country owns cars. Even the villigias, now they are getting a car.
Not as many as India in the villiages, but that will change

The villiages are more rural -just like here, but they have access to doctors care.
the old maxim " Arising tide lifts all boats" will soon bring a society that has the ability to eclipse America as the new economic superpower.


Want to know about their military??

I'll give you a hint - they arent a paper tiger there either.

[John Galt]

The first 2 sentences are facts, i guess you understand the faulty comparisons of democracy vs. capitalism? - right - a non sequitur?

My last sentence was saying " If you're gonna damn capitalism, then at least have to courage to compare it with an economic system, not a political one".

If he would have said capitalism is evil compared to Socialism, or Communism, it woulld have been a provacative statement, easily seized upon.

So ( IMHO) he tried to slip past that, by using "democracy"

either that or he's dumb as a post.
OK my friend...let's split hairs, as we usually do.


From Moore:

"Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil," the two-hour movie concludes. "You have to eliminate it and replace it with something that is good for all people and that something is democracy."


From You:


Freaking moron doesn't even understand capitalism is an economic system.
Democracy is a political system.

Guess he was too scared to say "Communism - or "Socialistic capitalism"


Socialism/Communism/Capitalism:


There are many different ideas or systems of how an economy should be run. The two most common are capitalism and socialism. They are very different in how they view who runs the economy. Most economies have ideas from both systems, but tend to be more of one than the other.

Capitalism is the economic system based on private or corporate ownership of, production and distribution of goods. It has always existed to some extent in all civilizations but was written about formally by Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Capitalists favor a system of free enterprise which means the government should not interfere in the economy - that the laws of supply and demand will make sure that the ecnomy runs most efficiently in meeting people's needs. Capitalism is characterized by competition in which there is rivalry in supplying or getting an economic service or good. Sellers compete with other sellers, and buyers with other buyers. The buyers seek the best possible deal in purchasing goods and the sellers look to make the best possible sale allowing them the most profit



The theories of socialism first arose in the late eighteenth century in response to the Industrial Revolution where factory owners were becoming wealthy and the workers impoverished. Thus, workers wanted a greater share in the wealth that factories were making. Later a form of socialism called communism sprang up based on the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Communism advocates class struggle and revolution to establish a society of cooperation with strong government control. Communism predominated in the former Soviet Union and much of Eastern Europe at one time. Today it predominates in China and Cuba, but its influence has lessened.



http://www.mcwdn.org/ECONOMICS/CapSoc.html



Paying close attention to the words in bold font, please explain to me...


Moore was pretty specific. He mentions Democracy as an alternative to the Capitalist society our nation has become. In the 1800's, when corporations were given the right of personhood, the definition of Capitalism changed forever.



Are you suggesting that Communism is an economic system? Aren't you making the same error that Moore supposedly made? Although....your definition of Capitalism is centuries old. You can refer to my previous comments to alter the definition for accuracy.


Most important, is my bold sentence re. Capitalism. Govt. shall not interfere with the economy? What happens, when the economy (corporations), interferes in the govt?


I expect the cries of Communism! from the obstructionist, "smoke and mirrors" approach from the righties on this board. From you, I expected better.

[CosmicRocker]

OK my friend...let's split hairs, as we usually do.


From Moore:




From You:





Socialism/Communism/Capitalism:


There are many different ideas or systems of how an economy should be run. The two most common are capitalism and socialism. They are very different in how they view who runs the economy. Most economies have ideas from both systems, but tend to be more of one than the other.

Capitalism is the economic system based on private or corporate ownership of, production and distribution of goods. It has always existed to some extent in all civilizations but was written about formally by Adam Smith in his book "The Wealth of Nations" in 1776. Capitalists favor a system of free enterprise which means the government should not interfere in the economy - that the laws of supply and demand will make sure that the ecnomy runs most efficiently in meeting people's needs. Capitalism is characterized by competition in which there is rivalry in supplying or getting an economic service or good. Sellers compete with other sellers, and buyers with other buyers. The buyers seek the best possible deal in purchasing goods and the sellers look to make the best possible sale allowing them the most profit



The theories of socialism first arose in the late eighteenth century in response to the Industrial Revolution where factory owners were becoming wealthy and the workers impoverished. Thus, workers wanted a greater share in the wealth that factories were making. Later a form of socialism called communism sprang up based on the writings of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Communism advocates class struggle and revolution to establish a society of cooperation with strong government control. Communism predominated in the former Soviet Union and much of Eastern Europe at one time. Today it predominates in China and Cuba, but its influence has lessened.



http://www.mcwdn.org/ECONOMICS/CapSoc.html



Paying close attention to the words in bold font, please explain to me...


Moore was pretty specific. He mentions Democracy as an alternative to the Capitalist society our nation has become. In the 1800's, when corporations were given the right of personhood, the definition of Capitalism changed forever.



Are you suggesting that Communism is an economic system? Aren't you making the same error that Moore supposedly made? Although....your definition of Capitalism is centuries old. You can refer to my previous comments to alter the definition for accuracy.


Most important, is my bold sentence re. Capitalism. Govt. shall not interfere with the economy? What happens, when the economy (corporations), interferes in the govt?


I expect the cries of Communism! from the obstructionist, "smoke and mirrors" approach from the righties on this board. From you, I expected better.
Why do you expect better? I don't have an idelogical p.o.v. - i just call them as I see them.

Communism is a co-operative economic system in theory, that's exactly what Karl Marx had in mind when he stated
"from each according to his abilities; to each according to his needs."

what is he talking about, other than goods and services??


Yes Communism in theory is an economic system. just as socialism is.
Of course it also had political ramifications when the USSR tried to expand/force it's collective ideas on the rest of the world where capitalism existed.

Bear in mind there is no pure capitalism, anymore than there was pure Communism. The apparaciks certainly got more than "their needs".
It was a system of state planning for the economy and rationing to the peoples.
Collectives may have been closed ( soley for their members) or open
( able to trade with other entities) - but the Communist command economy made those economic decisions, not the colectives.

"Right of personhood" is that right of ownership? rights of incorporation?
personal property incorporated into an entity?
Without going into modern types of corps (LLC. public . private) the idea that private propery can be assigned an entity is so corporations can do business AS an entity, rather than have Cosmic's Cans Mfg. company soley my personal property.
I can own corporate shares, but I don't have to tie that corporation to my other holdings - so if Cosmic Cans bankrupts, I don't necessarily go personally bankrupt.
Instead we allow corps. to have an entity, so I can buy and trade Cosmic's stocks ( pieces of ownership) sepeartly from my CosmicRocker's personal bank accounts.

was this helpful?

as we discussed earlier China has a Commnist gov't that sets policy, is involved in personal corps
( even the US has blurred the line with, bailouts and taxpayer ownership), but the monies derived from activity belong to the producers - not wholy the state.
The state can be a partner however.
Or State capitalism allows the state to direct economic activity.
They really are a communist gov't with a capitalistic economy.
Which is the point I was making.

Whether China or the US is or is not a democracy, has no direct bearing on how they run their economy.
A democratically elected gov't may regulate the market, jutst as a Communist gov't can.

So Moores statement " we need to replace capitalism with a democracy" is indeed a non sequitur.
as a Democracy or a Communist gov't isn't the sole determining factor the type of economy they run.

OK - ( you really need to be very clear on what you want me to answer).
I've tried to follow you, tell me what you disagree with about myeabout my analysis of Moores statement? or this post?

[disrupter]

Someone who does not take 'Capitalism' as the mantra of a blind superstition.

Now THAT's a refreshing breath of pure clean cold air.

Capitalism left to its own accord is completely degenerate, reductive & terminally suicidal.

Its proponents are treacherous madpeople.

But as an eclectist even the most toxic, vile poison may have SOME use at some point, so i don't completely throw capitalism away, but i do treat it with the great caution it provenly deserves.

[John Galt]

OK - ( you really need to be very clear on what you want me to answer).
I've tried to follow you, tell me what you disagree with about myeabout my analysis of Moores statement? or this post?


I don't want you to answer anything. I want you to understand how Capitalism, as an economic theory, has morphed into Captitalism as a political one.


Right of Personhood, was the key that gave corporations the green light to lobby congress. In doing so, they hold much more power than the individuals that do the same, because nowadays, money talks.

As described in the 1700's, Capitalism represented a free market approach, with no govt. intervention.

As I stated before, and as you don't grasp, when capitalists interfere in govt....through heavily funded lobbying efforts....we can now argue that Capitalism has morphed into a political, as opposed to an economic theory.


Plain and simple. So, even though you believe Moore conflates an economic philosophy...by 1700's definition...with a political one, I think he has valid grounds to do so.

He wants democracy back...for the people, by the people. Right of Personhood doesn't mean that corps. should have more rights than citzens. It's a loophole that gave them the ability to lobby Congress.

[kres24GT]

Always funny when people blast the system that has made them successful and allowed them to spread their messages. Most of the things Moore is criticizing is actually the result of a heavily regulated market, not a free one.

[Hog Trash]

I don't want you to answer anything. I want you to understand how Capitalism, as an economic theory, has morphed into Captitalism as a political one.


Right of Personhood, was the key that gave corporations the green light to lobby congress. In doing so, they hold much more power than the individuals that do the same, because nowadays, money talks.

As described in the 1700's, Capitalism represented a free market approach, with no govt. intervention.

As I stated before, and as you don't grasp, when capitalists interfere in govt....through heavily funded lobbying efforts....we can now argue that Capitalism has morphed into a political, as opposed to an economic theory.


Plain and simple. So, even though you believe Moore conflates an economic philosophy...by 1700's definition...with a political one, I think he has valid grounds to do so.

He wants democracy back...for the people, by the people. Right of Personhood doesn't mean that corps. should have more rights than citzens. It's a loophole that gave them the ability to lobby Congress.[1] Cut all loopholes and connections between corporations and government.

[2] Hold government accountable for their actions...Make corruption a crime with severe penalties.

Government will once again work for the American people instead of the fat cats who now own Washington DC.

Once again both government and capitalism will be the productive systems they were intended to be.

[CosmicRocker]

I don't want you to answer anything. I want you to understand how Capitalism, as an economic theory, has morphed into Captitalism as a political one.


Right of Personhood, was the key that gave corporations the green light to lobby congress. In doing so, they hold much more power than the individuals that do the same, because nowadays, money talks.

As described in the 1700's, Capitalism represented a free market approach, with no govt. intervention.

As I stated before, and as you don't grasp, when capitalists interfere in govt....through heavily funded lobbying efforts....we can now argue that Capitalism has morphed into a political, as opposed to an economic theory.


Plain and simple. So, even though you believe Moore conflates an economic philosophy...by 1700's definition...with a political one, I think he has valid grounds to do so.

He wants democracy back...for the people, by the people. Right of Personhood doesn't mean that corps. should have more rights than citzens. It's a loophole that gave them the ability to lobby Congress.
You'll have to give me your definition of right of personhood.
I don't know the term.

Capitalism ( corps??) do indeed have lobbiests.
any power base does.
If you want to reform the political system to exclude lobbiests, it sounds good, but it's against the idea that " people have the right to petition their gov't".

I think you want corporate influence out of govt? is this the point you want to make?
Problem is SCOTUS would prolly rule that unconstitutional - as interests groups are free to organize, either on a business or policy issue.

Congress could put restrictions on lobbiests, but not outlaw them.

Democracy allows freedom to assemble. That's basically what lobbiests are. no?

Citizens groups also have the right to assemble, the key is to strike a balance.

I DO agree corps have excess sway in gov't decision making.

Capitalism has morphed into a political, as opposed to an economic theory. No. here's where we disagree.
Capitalism is a form of economic activity.
Political systems can allow a Communist gov't to practice capitalism. ( i.e. China)

Or a democracy to practice socialism. ( western Europe)
Simply saying:
"replace evil capitalism with democracy" is off point.
It's an oversimplification that capitalism is "evil" - it's not.
It is not inherently so, nor is it inherently "good"

regulate capitalism, fine, but i still don't see where democracy is not a capitalistic system, or not.
Obviosly democracys practice different types of economics.

Democracy is the way a political system is organized.
As is Communism.
Being a Communist gov't with a capitalistic economic enviornment, is just as possible as having a democracy with a socialistic economic enviornment. trying to equate democracy with capitalism is apples and oranges. a non sequitur.
Democracies, just like Comminist govt's are free to chose whatever type of economic enviornment they wish to persue.

My head is spinning !!!

[John Galt]

[1] Cut all loopholes and connections between corporations and government.

[2] Hold government accountable for their actions...Make corruption a crime with severe penalties.

Government will once again work for the American people instead of the fat cats who now own Washington DC.

Once again both government and capitalism will be the productive systems they were intended to be.
Damn Hog, I didn't know you had it in you.


[1]. Achieved by ridding the need for millions of dollars to run a campaign. All networks should be required to air equal time for all politicians...free of charge. This, in exchange for tax credits.

No more political advertisements. All political ideas will be discussed in debate form only. Allow all candidates a podium, until they are knocked out to the running.

If we do this, we get rid of big money lobbyists.


[2] Again...take the money out of politics. Much of the corruption, is because of the temptation to take huge bribes, in exchange for a yay/nay vote. Duke Cunningham can describe what it's like to run a "defense contract to the highest bidder" business.


You may not like this, but I believe you and Michael Moore agree on these points.

[John Galt]

My head is spinning !!!
Damn Cos...is your google button broken? JFC!!!


http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/


Our Bill of Rights was the result of tremendous efforts to institutionalize and protect the rights of human beings. It strengthened the premise of our Constitution: that the people are the root of all power and authority for government. This vision has made our Constitution and government a model emulated in many nations.

But corporate lawyers (acting as both attorneys and judges) subverted our Bill of Rights in the late 1800's by establishing the doctrine of "corporate personhood" -- the claim that corporations were intended to fully enjoy the legal status and protections created for human beings




The main flaw in your lobbying rights argument, is that citzens can hold block votes over politican's heads while lobbying.

Corporations, hold billions of dollars in campaign contributions over politician's heads.
You tell me who has more pull?

Remove the need for the billions of dollars, and you remove the power of the corps. when discussing our political system.


It's a rather simple concept.

[CosmicRocker]

[1] Cut all loopholes and connections between corporations and government.

[2] Hold government accountable for their actions...Make corruption a crime with severe penalties.

Government will once again work for the American people instead of the fat cats who now own Washington DC.

Once again both government and capitalism will be the productive systems they were intended to be.
I'm all for getting rid of corrupt officials, who are bribed directly.

But you CAN"T outlaw lobbiests !! They have a right to assemble/ petition.

Some lobbying is actually a good thing
for ex. "Put that money into my district, and we'll do such and such with it."

[CosmicRocker]

Damn Cos...is your google button broken? JFC!!!


http://www.reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/







The main flaw in your lobbying rights argument, is that citzens can hold block votes over politican's heads while lobbying.

Corporations, hold billions of dollars in campaign contributions over politician's heads.
You tell me who has more pull?

Remove the need for the billions of dollars, and you remove the power of the corps. when discussing our political system.


It's a rather simple concept.
I can't follow that left wing nonscense.
I can only tell you the way SCOTUS interprets law, that corporations are entities, freely organized to promote their economic agenda.

Do you want to outlaw corps??
Do you want the gov't to say " this corp is ok - but this corp is not"?

PPl have a right to organize their commerce as they see fit.
They have to follow corporate law, but they certianly have the right to exist.

Moreover they have a right to persue their interests, thru lobbying.
Do you want to eliminate that??

Public campaign financing sounds good, but AGAIN it's unconstitutional, as currently interpreted by SCOTUS.

You have a right to support any campaign.
Corps have a right to give to a campaign. Those contributions can be restricted however.

Unless you can change SCOTUS ideas that campaign contributions are a function of free speech, this whole debate is mute.

[John Galt]

Unless you can change SCOTUS ideas that campaign contributions are a function of free speech, this whole debate is mute.


It may be moot, but I'm trying desperately to illustrate to you how Capitalism can be construed as a political issue, especially when you take it to the extremes that we see in this country.

Personally, you can keep all of the other rights of corporations, and stop them from lobbying Congress. Let the individuals of the companies do so, a la the unions.

You're the one who criticizes Moore for conflating the two. I'm trying to show you the flaw in your position, re. Moore. I'm not trying to rewrite the constitution.

Chew on that for a moment, instead of trying to argue the merits of U.S law.


It's a theory Moore's putting out there. If we change the way campaigns are run..as I laid out already, the corporations automatically lose the power they wield via the dollar.

Get it? The dollar...CAPITAL.

[CosmicRocker]

It may be moot, but I'm trying desperately to illustrate to you how Capitalism can be construed as a political issue, especially when you take it to the extremes that we see in this country.

Personally, you can keep all of the other rights of corporations, and stop them from lobbying Congress. Let the individuals of the companies do so, a la the unions.

You're the one who criticizes Moore for conflating the two. I'm trying to show you the flaw in your position, re. Moore. I'm not trying to rewrite the constitution.

Chew on that for a moment, instead of trying to argue the merits of U.S law.


It's a theory Moore's putting out there. If we change the way campaigns are run..as I laid out already, the corporations automatically lose the power they wield via the dollar.

Get it? The dollar...CAPITAL. why should unions get to lobby, but not management??

You can construe anything you wish, and economics does influence politics, as well as politics influencing economics.

One has to be vigorously succint in your language descriptions, or we wander off tract.
The meanings merge.

I see your point that economics does influence politics.

I hope you see mine that " capitalism needs to replaced by democracy "
is poorly worded at best.

[John Galt]

why should unions get to lobby, but not management??


The INDIVIDUALS within the union, should...and are prodded...to vote as a block. Govt. for the people.

Likewise, if a giant corporation can rally all of its employees to contact their reps/lobby, I have no problem with that. In essence, the people are demanding representation, in return for a VOTE. (something you don't get in other forms of govt.)

When Unions/Corps. can BUY representation, that's Capitalism as a form of govt.

That's the point you consistently miss, when discussing Moore's position.

The corps. get representation, at the expense of the people.

[CosmicRocker]

The INDIVIDUALS within the union, should...and are prodded...to vote as a block. Govt. for the people.

Likewise, if a giant corporation can rally all of its employees to contact their reps/lobby, I have no problem with that. In essence, the people are demanding representation, in return for a VOTE. (something you don't get in other forms of govt.)

When Unions/Corps. can BUY representation, that's Capitalism as a form of govt.

That's the point you consistently miss, when discussing Moore's position.

The corps. get representation, at the expense of the people.
if a giant corporation can rally all of its employees to contact their reps/lobby, I have no problem with that
hmm. lemme see if i got ur point, John.

Lobbying is ok? by corps or unions? / agreed.
I guess we would both agree that a lobbiest is ok , or even block voting, as the members are voting self interests ( nothing wrong with that).
Also the lobbying must be by registered lobbiests, above board ( transparent)


When Unions/Corps. can BUY representation, that's Capitalism as a form of govt I'd call it simple corruption ( buying 'representation').
But i don't want to put words in your mouth.
Please explain what you mean by "buying representaion"

[Hog Trash]

Damn Hog, I didn't know you had it in you.

You may not like this, but I believe you and Michael Moore agree on these points.Michael Moore is a marxist moron who has never had an original thought in his life.

Everything in his fat little head came straight out of the writings of Karl Marx.

[John Galt]

Michael Moore is a marxist moron who has never had an original thought in his life.

Everything in his fat little head came straight out of the writings of Karl Marx.
No one system is all good, or all bad. Even Marx may have had some good ideas...in principle.

Democracy sure looks good on paper, but you know it got watered down (with money) somewhere along the way.

[John Galt]

hmm. lemme see if i got ur point, John.

Lobbying is ok? by corps or unions? / agreed.
I guess we would both agree that a lobbiest is ok , or even block voting, as the members are voting self interests ( nothing wrong with that).
Also the lobbying must be by registered lobbiests, above board ( transparent)


I'd call it simple corruption ( buying 'representation').
But i don't want to put words in your mouth.
Please explain what you mean by "buying representaion"
I can taste it bro....we're getting really close here.


Initially, lobbyist would...quite literally....wait in the lobbies, and grab the ear of their elected officials.

They would get to air their grievances, and the offer of voter support was usually the stipend.

Get it? Voter support. Back in the good old days, votes were a means of representation.



I have no problem with lobbying, in order to get a point across.

These days, lobbyists....think Jack Abramoff....don't stand in lobbies...they make back room deals, that entail offers of huge payouts.

Now that a campaign costs tens of millions of dollars to run....(something that needs to be changed)...these giant corps. are BUYING votes through "lobbying", while the individuals who lobby only offer a vote.


Yes...it is corruption. Why do you think lobbyists must be registered? So that the govt. can trace all monies involved.


When you buy legislation, and call it "lobbying", that's Capitalism as a political entity.


You weren't "putting words in my mouth"...you're finally hearing what I've been saying for several pages.





If you don't think that the Pharma/Ins. companies are leaning heavily on our Congress right now, you aren't paying attention.

[MichMike]

Guys...John Galt has nailed it here. Perhaps the right wingers should go to a new thread.

[CosmicRocker]

I can taste it bro....we're getting really close here.


Initially, lobbyist would...quite literally....wait in the lobbies, and grab the ear of their elected officials.

They would get to air their grievances, and the offer of voter support was usually the stipend.

Get it? Voter support. Back in the good old days, votes were a means of representation.



I have no problem with lobbying, in order to get a point across.

These days, lobbyists....think Jack Abramoff....don't stand in lobbies...they make back room deals, that entail offers of huge payouts.

Now that a campaign costs tens of millions of dollars to run....(something that needs to be changed)...these giant corps. are BUYING votes through "lobbying", while the individuals who lobby only offer a vote.


Yes...it is corruption. Why do you think lobbyists must be registered? So that the govt. can trace all monies involved.


When you buy legislation, and call it "lobbying", that's Capitalism as a political entity.


You weren't "putting words in my mouth"...you're finally hearing what I've been saying for several pages.





If you don't think that the Pharma/Ins. companies are leaning heavily on our Congress right now, you aren't paying attention.
well we've wandered pretty far, to a topic we both agree is out of control.
Congressional spending. Lobbying by special interest groups.

You can't go back, you don't have a citizen gov't anymore, we have an Oligarchy of professional politicians who's main objective is to STAY a professional politician.

I'd take term limits in a heart beat, even if we lost a good Congressperson now and then.
Theres a saying "ppl generally get the gov' t they deserve", and because everyone hates Congress ( polls)
but still re-elects their own Congressperson, we wind up with character like Byrd, and Kennedy who spend 50 years in elected office.
( I just picked 2 names - don't flip cause i named Dems) .

So get some lobbying reform, haven't we tried that?
It's an institutional failure that lobbiests have so much power.
There are also the labor union lobbiests SIEU etc, they have enourmous power also.

Yes they must be registered, for what good it does.

Here's where we disagree. Congressional rules, corruption are the cause of earmarks, lobbied legislation, pork.
NOT capitalism
If we had a barter economy, no doubt baskets of corn (commodity) would be winding up in Congress.

You can't blame capitatism for corruption. it's simply an economic system.
Don't you think there was massive corruption in th USSR under Communism?

Besides this whole thread is "eliminate evil capitalism, and replace it with Democracy"

My point is under any economic system, there is still corruption.
Buying votes, doesn't directly correlate to a capitalistic society.

It's the "culture of corruption" that has to be changed.
Not capitalism. You can be sure bribes happen in Cuba every day.

[John Galt]

well we've wandered pretty far, to a topic we both agree is out of control.

We've known for years that you and I agree on many things.

So, we'll boil this down to semantics. You simply won't agree that in our system of govt., bribery of our representatives by corporations, is sufficient to alter your centuries old definition of Capitalism.

If nothing else, I have adequately explained how Moore can equate the two, and state that we need to get back to Democracy, the way it was meant to be run.

That's all I wanted to do, as you couldn't understand his conflation.


I won't go into the founding father's corrupt little "good ole boys club" approach to it though!

[John Galt]

Guys...John Galt has nailed it here. Perhaps the right wingers should go to a new thread.
Not that you accused him, but my boy Cos ain't no rightie...He's a free thinker.


Get me going on failed social programs, and I make Limp Baugh sound like a bleeding heart liberal.

[CosmicRocker]

We've known for years that you and I agree on many things.

So, we'll boil this down to semantics. You simply won't agree that in our system of govt., bribery of our representatives by corporations, is sufficient to alter your centuries old definition of Capitalism.

If nothing else, I have adequately explained how Moore can equate the two, and state that we need to get back to Democracy, the way it was meant to be run.

That's all I wanted to do, as you couldn't understand his conflation.


I won't go into the founding father's corrupt little "good ole boys club" approach to it though! Founding Father's "good ole' boys club??"

You have to look at the contemporary time the US was founded.
Slavery was widely accepted worldwide.
Women had a more traditional role, you know the deal.

No need to slur the Founders - we're the longest running Constitutional Democracy, they must have done a few things correct?

I DO understand Moore's conflation, and that's exactly what it is.

I have a problem with his quote " replace evil capitaliam with democracy"
that's because i'm a stickler for language.

I have no problem with the fact that money buys influence.
I mean i have a PROBLEM with the concept, but i agree in principal.

[CosmicRocker]

Not that you accused him, but my boy Cos ain't no rightie...He's a free thinker.


Get me going on failed social programs, and I make Limp Baugh sound like a bleeding heart liberal.
Always a pleasure doing business with you. :thumbsup:
we converse, we may disagree, but we respect each other.

Always a good thing

[doctordog]

It may be moot, but I'm trying desperately to illustrate to you how Capitalism can be construed as a political issue, especially when you take it to the extremes that we see in this country.

Personally, you can keep all of the other rights of corporations, and stop them from lobbying Congress. Let the individuals of the companies do so, a la the unions.

You're the one who criticizes Moore for conflating the two. I'm trying to show you the flaw in your position, re. Moore. I'm not trying to rewrite the constitution.

Chew on that for a moment, instead of trying to argue the merits of U.S law.


It's a theory Moore's putting out there. If we change the way campaigns are run..as I laid out already, the corporations automatically lose the power they wield via the dollar.

Get it? The dollar...CAPITAL.

Unions do not speak for all the people. Unions are as bad as corporations, if you disagree, let's review the election of JFK, the unions, and Sam Giancana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana

[Hog Trash]

Not that you accused him, but my boy Cos ain't no rightie...He's a free thinker.


Get me going on failed social programs, and I make Limp Baugh sound like a bleeding heart liberal.Whoever believes Cosby is a "rightie" is about as far off course as anyone can get.

He is a failure at life that is to lazy, ignorant and unmotivated to make it on his own, who believes it's perfectly OK to live off the fruits of his fellow mans labor.

The boy is a far left-wing, Che Guevara worshipping, pinko commie fool who believe's marxism is the saviour of the unproductive noncontributing bums of the world.

Like all liberals/socialist he is a weak dependent member of society who needs government to provide for and protect him...He desires government forced wealth redistribution.

He's just a stoner looking for a free ride...If you believe this uneducated bum is a "free thinker", we can only assume you share his marxist views...Don't be a sucker...This bozo's nothing but a looser!

Socialism is simply nothing more than a transition stage between capitalism and communism with the final stage being totalitarianism...Freedom loving people would never knowingly adopt communism.

That is why marxist strive to introduce socialism into the capitalist mix and let it slowly take root untill you awake some day in a full-blown communist nightmare and not realize how you ever got there.

If you ever take the time to notice, none of his arguments for his positions are based on anything solid...Like most of the little marxist shills he operates on the old smoke and mirrors trick of deception.

And not very effectively I might add...Even for a marxist he's an idiot................."Free thinker"???...Nigga Pleez!

[John Galt]

Unions do not speak for all the people. Unions are as bad as corporations, if you disagree, let's review the election of JFK, the unions, and Sam Giancana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana
I'm not a union guy...not even a little.


And...you've got the wrong Cos....


I was talking about Cosmicrocker.

[Hog Trash]

I'm not a union guy...not even a little.


And...you've got the wrong Cos....


I was talking about Cosmicrocker.Sorry CosmicRocker...I realize confusing you with the other "Cos" is quite an insult.

I should have known that no one could ever mistake that little commie fuck for a "rightie".

[CosmicRocker]

Sorry CosmicRocker...I realize confusing you with the other "Cos" is quite an insult.

I should have known that no one could ever mistake that little commie fuck for a "rightie".
Bill Cosby is an old friend. He's helped me to remain a centrist, as I'm prone to move conservative as i age.
( southern white male, mid 50's, most of my friends are white conservatives here in Florida.)

I was a lifelong lib/dem, until i embraced Buddhism, as more "user friendly" for me. which also led me to renounce partisian politics, and idelogy.

Anyways, Mr. HogT - i don't need to spell my life all out for you, i've just found it to more to my liking to remain " unattached" like the Budhist ideal.

Nice to talk to you sir.

[MichMike]

Not that you accused him, but my boy Cos ain't no rightie...He's a free thinker.


Get me going on failed social programs, and I make Limp Baugh sound like a bleeding heart liberal.


So down my friend, while I liked a few comments on this thread, if you go Libertarian, you'll make Rush seem reasonable after we are done.

[John Galt]

So down my friend, while I liked a few comments on this thread, if you go Libertarian, you'll make Rush seem reasonable after we are done.
Libertarian doesn't do it for me. Don't be fooled by my username....I was a big Ayn Rand fan decades ago, but only her works as an author.

I don't buy the Libertarian fantasy, nor the neoLibertarians, who think they can hide their conservative moniker.



My state does tend to have sky high taxes as a result of the aforementioned failed programs.

[Hog Trash]

Bill Cosby is an old friend. He's helped me to remain a centrist, as I'm prone to move conservative as i age.
( southern white male, mid 50's, most of my friends are white conservatives here in Florida.)

I was a lifelong lib/dem, until i embraced Buddhism, as more "user friendly" for me. which also led me to renounce partisian politics, and idelogy.

Anyways, Mr. HogT - i don't need to spell my life all out for you, i've just found it to more to my liking to remain " unattached" like the Budhist ideal.

Nice to talk to you sir.Do you mean by helping you "to remain a centrist" that you believe him to be a centrist?

[MichMike]

Libertarian doesn't do it for me. Don't be fooled by my username....I was a big Ayn Rand fan decades ago, but only her works as an author.

I don't buy the Libertarian fantasy, nor the neoLibertarians, who think they can hide their conservative moniker.



My state does tend to have sky high taxes as a result of the aforementioned failed programs.

To be sure, there have been failed programs. On the other hand, many programs fail due to the corrupt or incompetent government, people/companies driven by greed and not adverse to commiting fraud. In other words, many government programs are good, but need to be run by administrations that are vested in doing the right thing. It amazes me when people criticize the police and let the crooks off the hook. For example, it's easy to blame the EPA for not doing anything about invasive species in the Great Lakes until one figures out that the adminstration behind the EPA did everything it could to gut it in the name of the shipping industry. Hence, Great Lake states sued the EPA twice during the beloved Bush adminstration. EPA = good idea, Bush Adminstration = corrupt.

[John Galt]

To be sure, there have been failed programs. On the other hand, many programs fail due to the corrupt or incompetent government, people/companies driven by greed and not adverse to commiting fraud. In other words, many government programs are good, but need to be run by administrations that are vested in doing the right thing. It amazes me when people criticize the police and let the crooks off the hook. For example, it's easy to blame the EPA for not doing anything about invasive species in the Great Lakes until one figures out that the adminstration behind the EPA did everything it could to gut it in the name of the shipping industry. Hence, Great Lake states sued the EPA twice during the beloved Bush adminstration. EPA = good idea, Bush Adminstration = corrupt.
Agreed...While these aren't the specific programs I reference, this is a shining example of what is wrong with our system of govt.

Your post tends to blend with my comments throughout this thread. I'm quite sure the shipping industry, along with those who use the industry to further their businesses, lobbied...read, bribed...our leaders to loosen the "stranglehold" on the industry.

Thus, the issues of inv. species, coupled with the plethora of deadly fish viruses that affect many states on the region.


Of course, Bushco was replete with a "Fox guarding the henhouse" policy, when it came to all aspects of the environment. Anyone who tried to do their job, was either dismissed, or stepped down as a result of the castration.




There's nothing wrong with the theory of Democracy. The problems arise during the implementation.

[CosmicRocker]

Do you mean by helping you "to remain a centrist" that you believe him to be a centrist?
No Bill i would imagine calls himself liberal.

He consistently is anti-war, and we've had conversations, where we get into debates - just like everyone else here.

It's not simple to stay unaligned. But it's what i strive for.
" free from attachments"
( you can google that for an understanding of Buddhism).

a better way to say it is Bill, John, the gang at RV, and some folks i'm beginning to know here know here - are always willing to talk.

Left to my own devices, i'd proly stray into either right or left field again.

[Bill Cosby]

Michael Moore is a marxist moron who has never had an original thought in his life.

Everything in his fat little head came straight out of the writings of Karl Marx.

Have you read or studied marx..... :lmao2: :lmao2:

:thumbsup:

:hi:

[Bill Cosby]

Unions do not speak for all the people. Unions are as bad as corporations, if you disagree, let's review the election of JFK, the unions, and Sam Giancana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Giancana

I would say corporations are worse but you have a very good point....:thumbsup:

IMO a dictatorship of either is not good for the country...

I was very anti-union most of my life but now I have seen it swing to far the other way & I hope to see some increases in the roles...

Not all unions are bad, just like not all corporations are bad either...

[doctordog]

I would say corporations are worse but you have a very good point....:thumbsup:

IMO a dictatorship of either is not good for the country...

I was very anti-union most of my life but now I have seen it swing to far the other way & I hope to see some increases in the roles...

Not all unions are bad, just like not all corporations are bad either...

Ding ding ding-Middleground!:thumbsup:

[Hog Trash]

No Bill i would imagine calls himself liberal.

He consistently is anti-war, and we've had conversations, where we get into debates - just like everyone else here.

It's not simple to stay unaligned. But it's what i strive for.
" free from attachments"
( you can google that for an understanding of Buddhism).

a better way to say it is Bill, John, the gang at RV, and some folks i'm beginning to know here know here - are always willing to talk.

I believe Bill is a little further to the left than just liberal.....Anyway, I have read a little about Buddhism.

Although I do not practice any organized religion, I would say my spirituality is in tune with many Buddhist beliefs.

Left to my own devices, i'd proly stray into either right or left field again.
You sound a bit politically unstable...

[CosmicRocker]

I believe Bill is a little further to the left than just liberal.....Anyway, I have read a little about Buddhism.

Although I do not practice any organized religion, I would say my spirituality is in tune with many Buddhist beliefs.


You sound a bit politically unstable...
very astute, i AM unstable as I seek to discard old idelogies, partisian alliances, etc.
I lived all my life in Maryland - a VERY liberal state, and am an old hippie.

I wind up in Florida, a hodge podge of identities, and a southern state with northern transplants. Culture shock.
Then i find myself loving it here. I would not live ANYWHERE else in the USA, not CA, not another southern state, and I was never a Yankee
( Mason Dixon line is the border of Pennsylvania, and Maryland.)

it's all transcendental anyways, nothing is constant, I j st want to achieve some degree of enlightenment -
i can feel my chi, it is growing stronger, so i must be on the right path.
I'm trying to find my own path in politics, just as I am trying to stay truthful to my tao.

[John Galt]

Olberman just had an interesting comment, waiting for the speech...


"Tonight, we'll see if Barak Obama works for the people, or for the corporations"


Wonder if Keith reads here?

[doctordog]

sometimes corporations are the people.

[foxbaron]

[1] Cut all loopholes and connections between corporations and government.

[2] Hold government accountable for their actions...Make corruption a crime with severe penalties.

Government will once again work for the American people instead of the fat cats who now own Washington DC.

Once again both government and capitalism will be the productive systems they were intended to be.

Perhaps if we eliminated the appointment of the U.S. Attorney as a political appointment and made it either an elected office or an appointment by the Congress we would have more career prosecutors who would go after the corruption without interference by the White House.

When the White House controls the appointment it controls the office.

The office of the United State Attorney should be seperate from politics and accountable to the people directly. Come to think of it neither the White House nor the Congress should have any controil over the office.

[Hog Trash]

Perhaps if we eliminated the appointment of the U.S. Attorney as a political appointment and made it either an elected office or an appointment by the Congress we would have more career prosecutors who would go after the corruption without interference by the White House.

When the White House controls the appointment it controls the office.

The office of the United State Attorney should be seperate from politics and accountable to the people directly. Come to think of it neither the White House nor the Congress should have any controil over the office.An entity unto itself with unrestricted investigative powers over government employees and commisions for successful prosecutions.

Elected for six year terms and as long as they are successful and above reproach they can be reelected to unlimited terms...I like it.

[Bill Cosby]

No Bill i would imagine calls himself liberal.

He consistently is anti-war, and we've had conversations, where we get into debates - just like everyone else here.

It's not simple to stay unaligned. But it's what i strive for.
" free from attachments"
( you can google that for an understanding of Buddhism).

a better way to say it is Bill, John, the gang at RV, and some folks i'm beginning to know here know here - are always willing to talk.

Left to my own devices, i'd proly stray into either right or left field again.


I think hog & ppl on the right consider me a lib. I don't consider myself as such.. Perhaps progressive is a better way to put it...

What he ignores is that for most of my life I was pretty conservative & in many respects I still hold many conservative, traditional values.. If he likes it or not...

How bout gun toting lib??? :lmao2:

The avatar.. He focuses on Che & ignore the bart... Just like he does most facts... He picks the ones that fit is biases & prejudices & ignores the rest.. :banghead:

[CosmicRocker]

I think hog & ppl on the right consider me a lib. I don't consider myself as such.. Perhaps progressive is a better way to put it...

What he ignores is that for most of my life I was pretty conservative & in many respects I still hold many conservative, traditional values.. If he likes it or not...

How bout gun toting lib??? :lmao2:

The avatar.. He focuses on Che & ignore the bart... Just like he does most facts... He picks the ones that fit is biases & prejudices & ignores the rest.. :banghead:
Most ppl start out more lib, then start to naturally get conservbative, as they aquire wealth.

For me it's the true love of this country -warts and all - that has given me a rich life, which i want the next geneation to enjoy without a bad economy/bad debt.

Yu never cease to amaze me as you peel another layer of onion away, to reveal a bit more.

I've just always respected you as a sincere human rights conscious. Tote that load brother.

[Bill Cosby]

Most ppl start out more lib, then start to naturally get conservbative, as they aquire wealth.

For me it's the true love of this country -warts and all - that has given me a rich life, which i want the next geneation to enjoy without a bad economy/bad debt.

Yu never cease to amaze me as you peel another layer of onion away, to reveal a bit more.

I've just always respected you as a sincere human rights conscious. Tote that load brother.

ThnX my brotha'......... :D

That is one of the reasons I really like the site & mix we have hear....

Issues are examined & questioned from many different angles..

Although some are, we do not need to be party ideologues or partisan hacks...

Exploring/questioning ones own beliefs is not for everyone but I believe it makes those of us that do much richer & perhaps better...

:)