September 12th Taxpayer March on Washington DC

[Smurf-Herder]

Town Hall Anger Headed to Washington
By Paul Bedard, Washington Whispers

The angry Americans expressing themselves at lawmaker town halls around the country are heading to Washington. A planned September 12 taxpayer march on Washington, initially focused on taxes and corporate bailouts, is gaining momentum from the recent town halls where the administration's healthcare proposal has been hit for being too big and expensive. Organizers are now expecting thousands to parade on the White House and Congress to demand that Washington keep taxes low. Initially a follow-up to the springtime tea parties, the Saturday "Taxpayer March On D.C." is bringing together "tea party patriots, 'Resistnet,' FreedomWorks, Campaign for Liberty, and a host of other limited-government groups to storm the Capitol," organizers say. A conservative organizer tells Whispers that "a lot of unhappy taxpayers are busing in from as far away as 700 miles" and that much of the crowd will include seniors worried about healthcare and personal finances.

On the organizing site for the march, http://912dc.org, buses are being chartered and hotel deals are being offered to those coming to Washington.

The national tea party will come right as Congress is returning to Washington to renew negotiations over the energy bill, healthcare reform, and multiple appropriations bills to fund the government. Some organizers are hopeful that enough people participate to send Congress a signal before voting on those proposals begins.

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/washington-whispers/2009/08/17/town-hall-anger-headed-to-washington.html

09.12.09 March on Washington
The Tea Party Movement Goes to Capitol Hill

Why we must March on Washington

Throughout history governments have ignored the rights of citizens and instead have maximized their own power. Those in public office have used it for their own personal gain, or to take wealth from some and give to others in order to maintain their own power. It is a classic model that hasn’t changed much in thousands of years.

The modern iteration of this is a leviathan federal government run by a political party based precisely on such principles. The bread and circuses of Roman times have merely been replaced with redistribution of wealth and a paternalistic state.

The other major political party in America ostensibly believes in limited government and free markets, but as the previous administration proved, these principles are practiced only when convenient. Sometimes it may be necessary to disregard the free market, “in order to save it.” How disapointing.

The flame of liberty does not depend upon the success or failure of either political party in America. No one politician or party can keep that flame lit well into the future. Ultimately it is up to those that care deeply about freedom to stoke the embers, and protect them from the wind.

In the last year or so those of us who cherish liberty have been pushed up against a wall. We have watched the federal government bail out the elites on Wall Street for their own bad decisions. We have seen a new president waste a trillion dollars on failed economic ideas and increase our debt to dangerous proportions. We have heard the soaring rhetoric and watched the media fawn all over this new president who we are told is a new FDR. But we don’t want another FDR. We want our freedom, we want less government in our lives and we want to be left alone.

As we watched the size and scope of government grow exponentially this year we rose up in protests across the country. It is not in our nature as conservatives and libertarians to protest, but we had exhausted all other forms of communication to our elected officials. In late February hundreds or even thousands of Americans responded to the call for another Boston Tea Party by demonstrating in cities across the country.

We were mocked, we were doubted and we were vilified. They said that we were merely acting out, or that we wouldn’t be able to muster another protest like that. Weeks later, on tax day, more than a million of us came out again to send a much louder message to our elected officials. We had spent the previous weeks organizing, making signs, pleading with our friends and family to come out and be heard. We made history that day and shocked the elite media, which couldn’t quite figure out what was going on. Again, we were told that the protests wouldn’t continue, that we weren’t real.

But we pressed on, and continued to plan events around the country on July 4th and July 17th. The media essentially ignored us and barely mentioned the growing movement beneath their upturned noses. In early August everyone seemed surprised when thousands of us showed up at town hall meetings across the country and took advantage of our chance to meet face to face with the same politicians that have been voting for socialism in America. Now the attacks from the media and the left became more forceful, more ugly, more false. Finally, we had gotten our feet under us as a movement and had began to push back against the forces of socialism. The scene across the country was, I’m told, reminiscent of the sixties. Only this time the radicals were the ones protesting against the left-wing establishment.

Now we come to the heat of August, and the protests and town hall meetings are keeping the pressure on the politicians. As one woman in Pennsylvania told a prominent senator, “You have awakened a sleeping giant.” This month the media and the left will continue to write us off, or malign us, but we will press on. And once the dust settles and the politicians return to Washington, they will think that it is all over. They only wish.

As the politicians return, we will follow them to Washington. We will come from every state, in big cities and small towns, to descend upon the capitol building with one voice. Our message will be a simple one: we demand our freedom. We reject the growth of the federal government and want our republic restored. This is not, and never will be, a socialist nation.

We will march on Washington on September 12th because we must. Because we have to turn the temperature up on the politicians to remind them once again that we will not go quietly into the night. We will work harder and out-organize the taxpayer-funded left wing groups like ACORN. We, the producers of this country will not be taken over by the looters and their representatives in Congress.

A march on Washington is necessary because it is the natural next step for a growing movement that started with a spark in Cape Coral, Florida and Elkhart, Indiana. A movement where a handful of people inspired others thousands of miles away to take to the streets because if the folks in Cape Coral could do it, so could the folks in Elkhart. We march on Washington because it will take a massive gathering of liberty-loving Americans to make such an impact on Congress and the president that we stop the current slide to socialism. When the national and international press see that the American people have gathered by the thousands in one place, at one time, to stand in solidarity with the constitution and the declaration of independence, no longer will we be written off.

We have the opportunity to come together at this march and make our mark in a way that previous Americans before us have done. We can keep the flame of liberty lit for future generations, but we all have to put in the work to do so. We are only two weeks away from September 12th, a day in which we can finally speak in one, loud voice for freedom. I believe that if we can pull this off, we can stop the government takeover of health care and the energy sector, and stop this rapid socialist experiment before it eliminates any more of our liberty.

My personal appeal to you is to spend the next two weeks helping to spread the word about this event. Charter a bus, recruit more people, call talk radio and do everything else in your power to alert your fellow Americans to this cause. If we work together we can make history and throw a counter punch to big government that will put it on the ropes. From there, we can begin regaining our liberty and restoring our republic to its original founding. This is why we must march on Washington on September 12th.

http://912dc.org/

[doctordog]

I was planning to attend the one in DC but my trip got canceled, so I am attending a local one.

[Cookie]

Awesome! Everyone should show up!
________
Herbalaire (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/herbalaire/)

[Smurf-Herder]

How much you wanna bet the media ignores it?

It's on A Saturday afterall. So even if they do mention it, most people don't watch the news on a weekend. It'll be a little blurb page 20 of the NY Times.

[Moby]

How much you wanna bet the media ignores it?

It's on A Saturday afterall. So even if they do mention it, most people don't watch the news on a weekend. It'll be a little blurb page 20 of the NY Times.
Lobbyist organizing rallies in Washington, DC isn't really news unless Fox is doing the PR for it. It might get some press but it would have to be huge and grass roots to be worth much news time.

[Smurf-Herder]

Lobbyist organizing rallies in Washington, DC isn't really news unless Fox is doing the PR for it. It might get some press but it would have to be huge and grass roots to be worth much news time.

They've hardly covered the hundreds of grass roots rallies over the past few months as it is.

Lobbyists - protesting both parties?

[Moby]

They've hardly covered the hundreds of grass roots rallies over the past few months as it is.
The Tea Parties were never grass roots. Rallies go on often. It's just that the Neoconservative media wasn't covering the 100s of grass roots rallies during the last administration and the MSM never did because it ain't news.

[Bill Cosby]

Gee maybe I should show up w/ some signs of how I want my tax money spent...

[Bill Cosby]

....................... Down w/ big gov.,.... but only if it is for ppl.. war is cool.. take all my money you want for that...:thumbsup:

[Smurf-Herder]

The Tea Parties were never grass roots. Rallies go on often. It's just that the Neoconservative media wasn't covering the 100s of grass roots rallies during the last administration and the MSM never did because it ain't news.

We had a Tea Party in a dinky little town here in Northern Virginia, in the boonies. You're telling me some lobbyist did that?

Sorry, but it is news. People care; and they're getting sick of Washington, as a whole - both parties.

[ROdger Right]

Is there a point to the pictures?

[Bill Cosby]

They are my protesters @ the march rog.... If you like you can send me pict of you (clothed & cleaned up ) & I will see to it that you are repping @ this event... :) You can even add your own sign..... I will a spell check for yea even.......lol

[bairdi]

How much you wanna bet the media ignores it?

It's on A Saturday afterall. So even if they do mention it, most people don't watch the news on a weekend. It'll be a little blurb page 20 of the NY Times.
Why is it newsworthy? This little conservative temper tantrum will be lucky to draw even a quarter of the amount of people that attended the inauguration.

http://ahmadalikarim.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/barack-obamas-inauguration-ceremony.jpg

[doctordog]

Why is it newsworthy? This little conservative temper tantrum will be lucky to draw even a quarter of the amount of people that attended the inauguration.

http://ahmadalikarim.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/barack-obamas-inauguration-ceremony.jpg

Because most conservatives have a job to go to everyday so all the lazy fucks can support the President.:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

& they better show their asses up or no health care for them........lol:talktothehand:

& that is good for America.. WE can go work hard so the poor unemployed ppl don't have to spend extra hours in the ER for little babies cough..http://static2.trig.com/binary/production/Image/2/4/6/8/0/3/0/0/0/0/max:520x380/baby_smoking_001.gif & that saves us all lots of money...:thumbsup:

:D

[Smurf-Herder]

Why is it newsworthy? This little conservative temper tantrum will be lucky to draw even a quarter of the amount of people that attended the inauguration.

http://ahmadalikarim.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/barack-obamas-inauguration-ceremony.jpg

Big Brother loves you; and people like you. :thumbsup:

[bairdi]

Big Brother loves you; and people like you. :thumbsup:
So Big Brother loves me because I don't think that an event that will probably draw less than 1/4 the amount of people who attended the inauguration is not news worthy? Get real Smurf. These whiners will be lucky to draw enough people to fill up even half of Buckeye Stadium. When they reach the levels of protest like that which occured in the late 60's, then maybe it will be worthy of coverage.

[doctordog]

So Big Brother loves me because I don't think that an event that will probably draw less than 1/4 the amount of people who attended the inauguration is not news worthy? Get real Smurf. These whiners will be lucky to draw enough people to fill up even half of Buckeye Stadium. When they reach the levels of protest like that which occured in the late 60's, then maybe it will be worthy of coverage.

You don't get it yet do you. People that work and support the country with taxes and buying power don't get to protest, we leave that to the slackers, stoners, and losers.

[Bill Cosby]

You don't get it yet do you. People that work and support the country with taxes and buying power don't get to protest, we leave that to the slackers, stoners, and losers.

That is a good point..........

Do you think it could also apply to the working poor. Folks that are working, get no insurance, can not afford insurance or to take a day off & bitch about it...????:confused: :confused: :confused:

[doctordog]

That is a good point..........

Do you think it could also apply to the working poor. Folks that are working, get no insurance, can not afford insurance or to take a day off & bitch about it...????:confused: :confused: :confused:

Sure, I would love to see their financials to see what they are spending their money on.:thumbsup:

[Bill Cosby]

So there could be some common ground...

I think likely rent, car & child care would eat up most of it...

Here a car is almost a must as public transit is poor & spotty...

[bairdi]

You don't get it yet do you. People that work and support the country with taxes and buying power don't get to protest, we leave that to the slackers, stoners, and losers.
So you are saying this September 12th thing is a bunch of slackers, stoners and losers? OK, I'll buy that. :lmao2:

[Moby]

You don't get it yet do you. People that work and support the country with taxes and buying power don't get to protest, we leave that to the slackers, stoners, and losers.
So now you think the people that have been showing up to disrupt town hall meetings to stop the discussion of health care reform are neoconservative slackers, stoners and losers? You might want to add "Sheep" to that list.

You heard it here first straight from the brilliant mind of Wayers.

[Moby]

Fox News does a bunch of PR work and other organizations spend a bunch of lobby dollars to get a bunch of tea baggers together. Recovering drug addict and entertainer Glenn Beck shows up to give a speech and the MSM should cover it because it's news? :banghead:

That's as bad as Paris Hilton showing up at a club opening.

People are there because they were marketed to be there.
People want to be there because others are there.
It's news because entertainers are showing up.

Brilliant!

[Smurf-Herder]

So Big Brother loves me because I don't think that an event that will probably draw less than 1/4 the amount of people who attended the inauguration is not news worthy? Get real Smurf. These whiners will be lucky to draw enough people to fill up even half of Buckeye Stadium. When they reach the levels of protest like that which occured in the late 60's, then maybe it will be worthy of coverage.

I think that says it all - you consider people with legitimate concerns, of all walks of life and political backgrounds, who take the time to demonstrate against wasteful government spending whiners.

[Smurf-Herder]

So now you think the people that have been showing up to disrupt town hall meetings to stop the discussion of health care reform are neoconservative slackers, stoners and losers? You might want to add "Sheep" to that list.

You heard it here first straight from the brilliant mind of Wayers.

Oh, so people are only supposed to be sheep and sit there without telling their representatives how pissed they are.

I think you're confusing the sheep with people who are fed up and not gonna take it anymore.

The sheep are the ones telling people to shut up and do as they're told.

[xav8terx]

I think that says it all - you consider people with legitimate concerns, of all walks of life and political backgrounds, who take the time to demonstrate against wasteful government spending whiners.

The same thing was said about the war protesters so WTF?? And the sorry ass side you protect elected him twice...screams volumes about what you really believe.

[xav8terx]

Oh, so people are only supposed to be sheep and sit there without telling their representatives how pissed they are.

I think you're confusing the sheep with people who are fed up and not gonna take it anymore.

The sheep are the ones telling people to shut up and do as they're told.

Like the right a few months ago...wow how things change huh? Sure is different when your boys arn't in there spending more and more and more and more....

[MichMike]

.....Would somebody please let the 95% of us that have NO interest in attending this Fox News event how things go?

[CosmicRocker]

The Tea Parties were never grass roots. Rallies go on often. It's just that the Neoconservative media wasn't covering the 100s of grass roots rallies during the last administration and the MSM never did because it ain't news.You have no idea of what you speak of, you're just repeating DNC, and MSM talking points( or ignoring them, as the MSM have as non talking points)

The original tea parties sprang up FROM grass roots.( they started last Feb)
No Lobbiest organized them, no "astroturf" organizers put them together.

I personall know the organizer of the Orlando tea party held back in April.
Lisa Ferroli - she a housewife for god's sake.
She used LOCAL ( not national) talk radio to get the word out, and about 7000 showed up on a Sat.
Unfortunately most of my work hours are weekends, so I couldn't go.

But there have literally been thousands of them all over the country, in smal and large communities.
Again locally organized.

I'm not saying some astroturf organizers didn't work the Town Halls, but this National one that started in sacremento about 2 weeks ago, and all the ones in small town America are local grass roots.

The main concern is the size and scope of the gov't - they HUGE projected deficits scored by CBO ( and even OMB) under cap and trade, and the poublic opton is the driving force.

We might not get those deficits, depending on legislation, but that is the main reason for the original movements.

That's actually a pretty good turn out projected.
The massive anti-war movements of the 60's didn't start out that way, they grew in size year after year as more Americans wanted out of Nam.


This is pretty impressive in the first year, and the Dem's would be very advisd not to marginalize, or ignore this movement.
The BIGGEST concern among Independents is the massive growth of gov't.
that started with the Omnibus bill for this fiscal year ( which grew gov't by 8%) and the enourmous projected deficits.

[CosmicRocker]

.....Would somebody please let the 95% of us that have NO interest in attending this Fox News event how things go?
Just tune into the MSM national news, where it will be ignored, or attempted to be painted as crazoids.

[SeniorChief]

Seems the 9/12 group (Beck's) is all over this. CNN and Fox News have both covered the kickoff of the caravan today, which began in Sacramento.

If anyone needs a ride - check here http://912dc.org/

[MichMike]

Seems the 9/12 group (Beck's) is all over this. CNN and Fox News have both covered the kickoff of the caravan today, which began in Sacramento.

If anyone needs a ride - check here http://912dc.org/


Let's see here....no thank you, I think I'll work in the private sector that day generating wealth for the country (yes, I work on Saturdays at times). Later in the day, I'll spend time with my family in the greatest country on earth. Besides, I don't want to spend the $9.99 on one of the those Hitler mustaches. Have fun big guy...

[bairdi]

Seems the 9/12 group (Beck's) is all over this. CNN and Fox News have both covered the kickoff of the caravan today, which began in Sacramento.

If anyone needs a ride - check here http://912dc.org/
These people are the largest case of freaking nut cases that I think I have ever seen. Just wait until one of them sets the spark that starts a riot in the Capital. It is going to be like a replay of Chicago 1968, only this time it's the right wing wackos who will get their heads beat in.


Isaac
August 30, 2009 • 9:21 am

Oh Lord, hear our prayer.

Only you can lift the veil from Obama and

the men and women of Congress and Senate so

people can see them for what they are. A veil put

on them by Satan so they can deceive the people who know

you in their hearts and minds. Only you Lord know the rights

bestowed on us and only you can protect us now from these

defilers and deceivers.

Hear the cry of the Children of Zion

that Obama is ignorning.

You blessed the land of Zion for the Jewish people

and only you can allow it’s destruction. You have lifted your

blessing from those who turn from you and deceive in your

name. Our brothers and sisters in Christ know that You

will reveal our messiah Yahwah when you are ready.

Please Oh Lord lift the veil of ignorance that Satan has put on

your chldren here in the US so they can see

the truth of what evil is in store for them.

Please Oh Lord, be with all your children as they fight for

the rights you bestow on us in One Nation under God.

Oh God please place a Hedge of Thorns around us all who

walk in Washington DC on September 12 2009 and protect us

from the evil that is trying to destroy us.

In You we trust God. Only you.
Reply

*
Anne
August 30, 2009 • 12:56 pm

Amen!!
Reply
*
Diane Atkins
August 31, 2009 • 4:18 pm

Amen. and add the 35th psalm….
Reply
*
Dave
August 31, 2009 • 5:45 pm

Amen.
Reply
*
Katherine Everton
August 31, 2009 • 8:32 pm

Amen. Lord God please guide us.
Reply
http://912dc.org/2009/08/why-we-must-march-on-washington/

[SeniorChief]

These people are the largest case of freaking nut cases that I think I have ever seen. [/URL]

Man, you must live under a rock.
Surf over to DailyKos and search keyword "War Protest."

[CosmicRocker]

Let's see here....no thank you, I think I'll work in the private sector that day generating wealth for the country (yes, I work on Saturdays at times). Later in the day, I'll spend time with my family in the greatest country on earth. Besides, I don't want to spend the $9.99 on one of the those Hitler mustaches. Have fun big guy...
from the interactions I've had with you, you seem to be a pretty grounded guy.
So i'll lay it out for you.

Local governments/ States have to run a balanced budget.
Orlando ( my location) had to lay of firefighters this year - then they got some stimulus money, and were able to get fully staffed.

Florida has been killed by the housing bust, State services ( even education)
has to to reduce it's operating budget.
There have been some tough decisions to make, but we have a balanced budget.

The Fed's on the other hand ( and i blame BOTH parties), have a national credit card, they don't have to run a balanced budget.
IF the CBO numbers released earlier that show projected national debt going to 20.8 trillion under Obama come true JUST the interst alone on that would be enough to fund the entire Defense Budget, come 2018.

That's unacceptable, dangerous to the future of the countries solvency, etc.

There are some wacko groups that have aligned themselves to the Tea Parties - through astroturf organizers.

But the average joe independent motivations are not stupidly manipulated by the lobbiests, or RNC ops.
They have real, true concerns about the continuous unchecked( yes Bush did it too) growth of the Fed. Budget.

Medicare is on the road to insolvency, SSA isn't too far behind.
Then we have all the new taxes proposed - again look at the numbers - and Americans are concerened we're heading to a place we can't get back from.
Insolvency, or a national debt that will consume large amount of revenues just to pay the interest on these new debts.

That's what the average Tea Party goers concerns are.

Yes they ahve been co-opted by some groups, but look at all the polls, and one of the biggest concerns is the growth of the deficit.

That's where all this started.

[John Galt]

from the interactions I've had with you, you seem to be a pretty grounded guy.
So i'll lay it out for you.

Local governments/ States have to run a balanced budget.
Orlando ( my location) had to lay of firefighters this year - then they got some stimulus money, and were able to get fully staffed.

Florida has been killed by the housing bust, State services ( even education)
has to to reduce it's operating budget.
There have been some tough decisions to make, but we have a balanced budget.


I suspect that most states don't have a balanced budget. Let me get this straight...weren't you one of those grass roots supporters who railed against bailouts/stimulus?

Then, the stimulus money bailed you guys out? I once asked how much taxpayer money you guys got every time a hurricane swept through....I believe you said none?


The funny part about this 9/12 march, is that the majority of those marching will have their taxes lowered under Obama. Yet...they are complaining about taxes?

Tell me again about how they aren't being fed their talking points.

[CosmicRocker]

I suspect that most states don't have a balanced budget. Let me get this straight...weren't you one of those grass roots supporters who railed against bailouts/stimulus?

Then, the stimulus money bailed you guys out? I once asked how much taxpayer money you guys got every time a hurricane swept through....I believe you said none?


The funny part about this 9/12 march, is that the majority of those marching will have their taxes lowered under Obama. Yet...they are complaining about taxes?

Tell me again about how they aren't being fed their talking points.No. we got some Federal Diasater aid from the hurricanes, j
Just like the midwest does from flooding, or CA. when they get earthquakes. Just like Katrina ( although less fucked up).

Our 5 hurricanes hit Fla all in one year. I've been here since 99, and it was never duplicated.
Still, anything can happen.


I favor a national disaster relief fund, a nationwide " insurance" that all states are reqired to participate in.
a disaster can happen anywhere to any state ( but that's besides the point).

How do you know taxes will be reduced? If the funding is needed for a public option, or cap and trade, or whatever new spending (one never knows how fast Congress can spend money) than middle class tax hikes may happen.

The real concern is the continued long term adding to the national debt.

we've been funding a lot of programs that way for years.
There's nothing wrong with a short term debt, or even carrying a level of debt.

China however has already said It will not continue to buy long term T-Bills unless the US GUARANTEES current market rates.
If we go into a long recession, that's gonna have to come from Fed funding.

What I'm saying is the current path is unsubstainable.
At some point either taxes are gonna have to be raised, unless we get enourmous GDP growth. I see no indications of that, although we should be back in positive GDP growth this coming quarter - but not boom times.


Most state ARE required to have a balanced budget -ill have to look it up.
States can't print money, and can only float bonds for specific projects.
Not general budget needs.

I wasn't crazy about the idea of bailing out the banks, but recognized the need to keep the financial system from collapsing. Plus the banks are paying back the loans. And the housing market bad loans had to be amorized.

I WAS against the GM/auto bailouts, because the STRUCTURAL problems are still there, we can't build competative cars with the costs structure we have.
Still; if GM can turn around, that would be OK - but i don't see it happening.
I may be wrong.

The point is, NEXT year Florida will prolly face the same problems, unless the housing market picks up.
If it doesn't, then NO I don't want Florida to get any more money from stimulus.
A one shot deal ( Keynesian "pump") is OK, but if it's a chronic problem, then Florida - and by extension other states are just gonna have to cut back.
One cannot continue to function on subsidies.

So the concern is long term. Clinton got a balanced budget.
Gore said to put the suplus in a "lockbox", and was derided by the media, and even SNL. Looking back it would have been a good idea.

Instead BushCo, and the Repub. Congress spent like drunken sailors.
Now the Dem's are in power, and are on course to double down on that bad idea.

It has to stop. we can't live like this indefinately.
You know I'm non-partisian, so I have no political axe to grind.

It's just common sense - if your debts exceeded your annual income by 1 1/2 times - you'd NEVER pay it down, you'd have to declare bankruptcy.

That's where we're headed ( GDP of 14 trillion -National debt of 20.8).
Something has to change here. That's the reason for the public angst.
Again look at the polls, and you'll see the main opposition to public option is the costs, not the idea of universal coverage.
Obama sees huge growths in green tech from cap and trade - i doubt it, and the Senate is prolly not gonna even pass it.

I'd go single pay, but like we've discussed at RV it's not going to happen.

Put on the green eyeshades, do the accounting.
Alarm bells should be going off !! we're broke, and going broker !

[MintJulep]

Man, you must live under a rock.
Surf over to DailyKos and search keyword "War Protest."
Ain't that the truth.

[Bill Cosby]

I suspect that most states don't have a balanced budget. Let me get this straight...weren't you one of those grass roots supporters who railed against bailouts/stimulus?

Then, the stimulus money bailed you guys out? I once asked how much taxpayer money you guys got every time a hurricane swept through....I believe you said none?


The funny part about this 9/12 march, is that the majority of those marching will have their taxes lowered under Obama. Yet...they are complaining about taxes?

Tell me again about how they aren't being fed their talking points.

Very well put..... :thumbsup:

They have money for millionaires & billionaires but not unemployed & uninsured hard working American citizens......

[bairdi]

Ain't that the truth.
From The 12th Sense

Cole Sear: I see brain dead people.
Malcolm Crowe: In your dreams?
[Cole shakes his head no]
Malcolm Crowe: While you're awake?
[Cole nods]
Malcolm Crowe: Brain Dead people like, in graves? In coffins?
Cole Sear: Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're brain dead.
Malcolm Crowe: How often do you see them?
Cole Sear: All the time. They're everywhere.

[John Galt]

No. we got some Federal Diasater aid from the hurricanes, j
Just like the midwest does from flooding, or CA. when they get earthquakes. Just like Katrina ( although less fucked up).

Our 5 hurricanes hit Fla all in one year. I've been here since 99, and it was never duplicated.
Still, anything can happen.


My point is that people can't simultaneously adopt a "stop big govt." attitude, while they/their state is getting normal and accepted help from....the govt.

What all of this supposed "grass roots bullshit" is supposed to cloud, is the fact that the wealthy got pretty damned fat in the last 8 years, and most of it was at our expense. Just because we're out in the cold, don't think those huge bonuses aren't still being handed out.

There's plenty of money to be raised through taxing the wealthy. Too fuckin bad if they don't like it now...they were happy when their oil futures were paying nicely. Their shortselling windfalls probably cost many of those jobs that we reminisce about. Say nothing of the sub prime debacle.




I favor a national disaster relief fund, a nationwide " insurance" that all states are reqired to participate in.
a disaster can happen anywhere to any state ( but that's besides the point).



Right...because you are in one of the areas that gets hammered on a regular basis. There are those who would disagree with your opinion. No doubt, they have a climate like mine that might dump 4 feet of snow on your ass, but we don't get annihilated by hurricanes/earthquakes.


I take issue with the mindless masses, that keep yelling catchphrases they read in an email. I want to know if you're in favor of cutting off your mother's SSI, or Medicare? Are you in favor of cutting public transportation in your area? Who gets to draw the line as to what types of programs get cut?

There were billions of dollars to spend in the last decade. Now we've discovered righteous indignation?



How do you know taxes will be reduced? If the funding is needed for a public option, or cap and trade, or whatever new spending (one never knows how fast Congress can spend money) than middle class tax hikes may happen.



Taxes will be raised on the wealthier people. Cap and trade will be funded by the lower/middle/upper class. You're forgetting that part of the problem with healthcare, is the gross waste of money we have in the present system. If the ins./pharm industries, and their investors didn't pocket such a big piece of the pie, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Everyone will be able to keep their present insurance if they can afford it. Those with no care will have an avenue that doesn't require wasteful emergency room visits.

What doesn't get mentioned in all of this shouting, is that billions of dollars of burden will be lifted from the nation's employers. If we trust them not to pocket the profits, perhaps they'll create jobs.

[CosmicRocker]

by John Galt]My point is that people can't simultaneously adopt a "stop big govt." attitude, while they/their state is getting normal and accepted help from....the govt.

Huh? we got 1 disater relief in 10 years.
It's just an idea for the states to help out themselves with a national disaster relef ins -
instead of unbudgeted presidential Declaration of Emergency.
Food for thought, not worth dwelling over.

all states got stimulus money.
Like I said, if you had read deeper, instead of trying to oversimplfy my argument is that a " 1 time shot" was fine.
Many states used it to pay government workers, so it was more of a band aid than stimulus.
What is unacceptable is to continue to fund state gov't with more stimulus.
The stimulus spending was poorly planned, even now on about 14% has been sent - yet we are coming out of the recession according to Wall St.
Let's see if unemployment goes down in the next few moths as it's a lagging indicator, and may take 6 months for rehiring.

We 're still scheduled to keep spending more, even if the normal business cycle lifts the recession.
Housing is stabilizing, even here in Florida, which took a bad hit from the bad loans, and speculative pricing.



What all of this supposed "grass roots bullshit" is supposed to cloud, is the fact that the wealthy got pretty damned fat in the last 8 years, and most of it was at our expense. Just because we're out in the cold, don't think those huge bonuses aren't still being handed out.

Oh come on John- don't be facile. Growth of wealth is a GOOD thing.
Yes eliminate the Bush tax cuts, they were indeed a sop to the wealthy.

I don't buy your "zero sum" analysis, take it from the rich, give it to the middle clas/poor .
You have to have venture capital available to grow new jobs.
Not trickle down crap, but you can't be taxing the rich to the point they won't open new business.
So just trying to fund all the new expenditures solely by the rich, is conterproductive.
we need GROWTH - small business and major corps both provide it.

Yes. I agree the " fat cats" get too many golden parachutes, and excessive pay.
But when you have a "pay czar", that's a distorion of normal business practices. It's a balance that is needed.
destroy the culture of corruption by prosecuting those who cook books.
But America has NEVER dictated pay scales, i hate to use the word -
but that's really wealth redistribution, you know what that is - a marxist ideal.


There's plenty of money to be raised through taxing the wealthy. Too fuckin bad if they don't like it now...they were happy when their oil futures were paying nicely. Their shortselling windfalls probably cost many of those jobs that we reminisce about. Say nothing of the sub prime debacle.

answered above. repeal the Bush tax cuts. But don't destroy the incentives for investing, or entrepenuial activities.
Saying the rich can fund a doubling of the deficit is ridiculous.
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF the original baggers. You can't raise enough taxes to fund the debt increases.
The debt WILL RISE - that's the problem

The deficit is already out of control.
You can't tax enough to fund it, so you wind up with an unfunded increase.
Surely you agree that is problematic.

The rest of the crazioids shouting down at town halls are too stupid to know that single pay actually helps business and control heath care costs.
But we're not gonna get it sadly, we might not even get a public option.

Blame Obama for that, as well as Congress being influenced by lobbiests.

Obama and Congress should have worked togeher to design the bill, instaed of Obama just leaving up to Congress.
The Blue Dogs are actually more vulnerable , then if they had supported single pay.
It was a collosal failure of leadership on both sides of Pennsylvania Ave that got us to this stalemate.



Right...because you are in one of the areas that gets hammered on a regular basis. There are those who would disagree with your opinion. No doubt, they have a climate like mine that might dump 4 feet of snow on your ass, but we don't get annihilated by hurricanes/earthquakes.

answered. don't worry about it, it aint happening

I take issue with the mindless masses, that keep yelling catchphrases they read in an email. I want to know if you're in favor of cutting off your mother's SSI, or Medicare? Are you in favor of cutting public transportation in your area? Who gets to draw the line as to what types of programs get cut?There were billions of dollars to spend in the last decade. Now we've discovered righteous indignation I'm not in favor of cutting programs to any vulnerable part of the population.

Interesting you bring that up, as $500 billion is scheduled to be REDUCED to medicare to fund the public option.
That's how Obama plans to pay for public option, i'm no more in favor of that than I am of cutting SCHIP. or WIC.

These are poverty level , or retiress with low income supplements.
I would be OK with means testing for recieving SSA or Medicade.
That make common sense, if you are wealthy, do you really need that SSA payment?
Or Medicare?

Who gets to draw the line as to what types of programs get cut?
Congress. a good place to start would be earmarks, and STOP growing gov't operating costs.


Taxes will be raised on the wealthier people. Cap and trade will be funded by the lower/middle/upper class. You're forgetting that part of the problem with healthcare, is the gross waste of money we have in the present system. If the ins./pharm industries, and their investors didn't pocket such a big piece of the pie, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Everyone will be able to keep their present insurance if they can afford it. Those with no care will have an avenue that doesn't require wasteful emergency room visits.

What doesn't get mentioned in all of this shouting, is that billions of dollars of burden will be lifted from the nation's employers. If we trust them not to pocket the profits, perhaps they'll create jobs.

If you're arguing Signal pay, you're speaking to the converted.


Now the cap and trade thing is another discussion, if you start raising energy prices, AGAIN you retard growth, or increase production costs.
But i'm not all yet claer on the ramifications, i'm witholding judgement till it becomes part of the legislative agenda, so we can see some language

[ROdger Right]

Alright im not a fan of the word but ill use it on myself. Im a stoner, slacker, entrepenor, unemployed and im willing to march for the cause.

And yes I pay very little taxes and still have managed to outmanuerver the feds for a number of years.

Now purchase me a ticket.

[John Galt]

But the average joe independent motivations are not stupidly manipulated by the lobbiests, or RNC ops.
They have real, true concerns about the continuous unchecked( yes Bush did it too) growth of the Fed. Budget

Back on point.

How many of these "average Joes" do you think are wasting time at these rallies?

These people know that we're in a tough situation, and we've got to tighten our belts. But, they also know that inaction will bring worse consequences. I don't believe that those you reference above, are showing up at townhall meetings, and screaming/denouncing govt. run healthcare.....while being on medicare/veteran's assistance.



The vast majority of imbeciles that will attend these protests, are doing so because that's the newest fad. They don't even realize that what they are denouncing, would help them in the long run.

Their taxes aren't going up....they're too stupid to do their own research.


Talk about brainwashing, and social engineering.

[Bill Cosby]

They let the "smart ppl" do the research for them so they can watch tv.....

They just do what they are told....

Get all fired up listening to "the entertainer's" reruns on the drive over...

Drop off the SS check & stop @ walmart for a bite to eat & some cardboard for signs...

Such is life.........

[CosmicRocker]

Back on point.

How many of these "average Joes" do you think are wasting time at these rallies?

These people know that we're in a tough situation, and we've got to tighten our belts. But, they also know that inaction will bring worse consequences. I don't believe that those you reference above, are showing up at townhall meetings, and screaming/denouncing govt. run healthcare.....while being on medicare/veteran's assistance.



The vast majority of imbeciles that will attend these protests, are doing so because that's the newest fad. They don't even realize that what they are denouncing, would help them in the long run.

Their taxes aren't going up....they're too stupid to do their own research.


Talk about brainwashing, and social engineering. you don't know anymore than I do who is showing up.
It's so very convienent to dismiss them as "Imbeciles", and from most of the coverage I've seen - many are.

There ARE a lot of seniors REALLY pissed off the they would lose coverage ( funding) from Medicade to fund the public option.

There are also no doubt plants, or the "astroturf" types.

You keep claiming taxes won't go up - but the alternative is MASSIVE increases in deficits.

The libetarians got involved, and use it as a platform for the flat tax.

It's a mishmash - but look at the polls !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( i keep telling you this, you keep ignoring it)

less than 50% now want Congress to add a public option, but still most Americans want reform/ why the disconnect?

It's beacuse the Adm. has done a lousy job in explaining about it.
It's because Independents don't have confidence that Congress won't screw health care up even more.
And it's beacuse the seniors are afraid ( i can't disagree $500 billion is a lot to take out of Medicare)
that the coverge they get will be more difficult to come by.

These are legitimate concerns, whether you agree or not.

All of this could have been avoided if Congress and Obama had done some work behind the scenes instead of rushing forward with no plan, just an outline that has to be reconcilled by the various commitees in the Senate.

Now even the public option is being walked back on.
$$ to doughnuts we won't even get that - maybe a "trigger" is the new buzzword.

The whole thing is a PR nightmare.
Poor leadership, poor outlines - you have all these questions, and because there IS NO FINAL BILL, half truths become fixed in the public mind.

Beofre you go off again and rant about the "Imbeciles" - look at the way your party ( assume you are a Dem.) has handled this situation..
You'll find a lot of imbeciles right there, in terms of political organizing.

and you have those pesky CBO/OMB numbers, that you seem to gloss over.

The Dem's have the White House and Congress, a Democratic dream.
But because of the lousy way this whole thing was handled it's become a nightmare.

[Moby]

You have no idea of what you speak of, you're just repeating DNC, and MSM talking points( or ignoring them, as the MSM have as non talking points)
Actually Megan Kelly admitted on Fox News that they were doing PR for the the tea baggers. They ran over 50 commercials promoting it. They used their entertainers for headliners.

What's grass roots about Rupert Murdoch organizing and promoting events? Perhaps you have a different idea of "Grass Roots".
http://www.answers.com/topic/grassroots-democracy
People or society at a local level rather than at the center of major political activity. Often used with the.

[SeniorChief]

Actually Megan Kelly admitted on Fox News that they were doing PR for the the tea baggers.

When will the rest of the media admit they did PR for Obama during his entire campaign?

[Moby]

The sheep are the ones telling people to shut up and do as they're told.
Isn't that how Senior Chief has lived his entire life?

Isn't that what Fox News does by calling people "Loons" or "Pin Heads"?

I'm all for people coming up with real concerns and voicing them. I just want people to think for themselves and not do things and say things that are programmed into them.

Remember writing, "Palin Jindahl 2012" for no good reason what so ever? Was that your original thought?

No one with original thought bothers watching, listening to or following the paid pundits. NO ONE!

[Moby]

When will the rest of the media admit they did PR for Obama during his entire campaign?
Why are you still here? Aren't you a man of your word?

[SeniorChief]

Why are you still here? Aren't you a man of your word?

Becuase I enjoy you dodging issues when confronted with FACT, pud-nit.
Why are you still a Moderator?
You should ban yourself for utter stupidity/adding nothing to this forum.

[CosmicRocker]

Actually Megan Kelly admitted on Fox News that they were doing PR for the the tea baggers. They ran over 50 commercials promoting it. They used their entertainers for headliners.

What's grass roots about Rupert Murdoch organizing and promoting events? Perhaps you have a different idea of "Grass Roots".
http://www.answers.com/topic/grassroots-democracy
No need to insult my intelligence by posting a link to the defintion of "grass roots"

"Admitted doing PR?" can you provide a quote for that?

The point iswas making is the tea baggers/flat taxers/nutcases/Obama haters/concerned citizens are all loosly aligned.
Not even aligned really - organized would be a better term.

YOU CAN'T DISMISS THEM ALL AS NUTCASES, not when more than half don't trust Congress to reform healh care/ insurance - whatever the term being used now.

Even is Fox preovided PR, the original tea parties happened all over the country, organized by GRASS ROOTS local organizers.
I can go ove the history if you wish.
Take my word for it, initillally the prime mover was concern over the doubling of the debt.
Things have meandered since then.

Keep in mind the tea partys are different then the town halls.
But I do agree with you they have devolved into a cabal of interests

[John Galt]

Beofre you go off again and rant about the "Imbeciles" - look at the way your party ( assume you are a Dem.) has handled this situation..
You'll find a lot of imbeciles right there, in terms of political organizing.


Nope...I never voted before 2004, when I felt the need to get those thieves out of the White House. A waste of time, because NY always votes dem anyway.


I recognize that all politicians are thieves, which is why I keep saying that the first step toward fixing many of our healthcare problems, is to change the way elections are run.


You give way too much credence to polls. They don't interest me in the least. I can run a poll tomorrow, and get any result I want.


The fact is, Obama has tried in earnest to keep his promise of bi partisan discussion, in order to fix the mess that he inherited. You keep denouncing him for that. In a democracy, I would hope that our President would encourage input from all sides...even the side that drove our economy into the ground.


Since his inauguration, the republicans have been naysayers...period. They don't even have a plan of their own...just a bunch of tired old catchphrases. You still can't tell me where these "grass roots" purists were, when Bushco turned a huge budget surplus, into a bigger deficit.

Why are we just hearing from them now? Because they are following the script from the right wing imbeciles.



Bushco gave a blank check to the insurance industry when they supposedly revamped medicare. It still isn't right. We need an overhaul, that will do away with waste, and payoffs to insiders.

I'm sure you'll be happier, when Obama finally shuts the door on the republicans, and decides to get something accomplished.

It won't be long now.

[CosmicRocker]

Nope...I never voted before 2004, when I felt the need to get those thieves out of the White House. A waste of time, because NY always votes dem anyway.


I recognize that all politicians are thieves, which is why I keep saying that the first step toward fixing many of our healthcare problems, is to change the way elections are run.


You give way too much credence to polls. They don't interest me in the least. I can run a poll tomorrow, and get any result I want.


The fact is, Obama has tried in earnest to keep his promise of bi partisan discussion, in order to fix the mess that he inherited. You keep denouncing him for that. In a democracy, I would hope that our President would encourage input from all sides...even the side that drove our economy into the ground.


Since his inauguration, the republicans have been naysayers...period. They don't even have a plan of their own...just a bunch of tired old catchphrases. You still can't tell me where these "grass roots" purists were, when Bushco turned a huge budget surplus, into a bigger deficit.

Why are we just hearing from them now? Because they are following the script from the right wing imbeciles.



Bushco gave a blank check to the insurance industry when they supposedly revamped medicare. It still isn't right. We need an overhaul, that will do away with waste, and payoffs to insiders.

I'm sure you'll be happier, when Obama finally shuts the door on the republicans, and decides to get something accomplished.

It won't be long now.OK. i ASS umed -my bad.

Change the way elections are run? - sounds good but SCOTUS
pretty much equates campaign contributions with free speech.
( are we talkng public finance? - i'd prefer it too).

You don't give much credence to polls?
OK - but POLITICIANS do, and when the polls "go south"(negative), they run and hide.

Sure. slam the door on the Repubs, except you need 1 or 2 ( haven't even tried to count) to pass the Senate.

The problem is not with the Republicans, they're never gonna support any kind of reform, except for minor ins. co. adjustments.

The Blue Dogs, and the Independents, is where most of the leakage is.
That's why the numbers have tanked, Obama never had Rep. support except fleetingly, if that.
So YES ! GET IT DONE!! - i'll still want a single pay, but i'm not optimistic about anything right now.

I gotta run John, getting dark, and i have to go round up my cats.

I work crazy weekend hours, i'll try to pop in - but have yourself a GREAT weekend, if we don't talk again.

And if you call an infomercial 800 operator over the holiday - think BE KIND.
I'm just doing my job !" LOL Vaya con dios amigo

[John Galt]

OK. i ASS umed -my bad.

Change the way elections are run? - sounds good but SCOTUS
pretty much equates campaign contributions with free speech.
( are we talkng public finance? - i'd prefer it too).

You don't give much credence to polls?
OK - but POLITICIANS do, and when the polls "go south"(negative), they run and hide.

Sure. slam the door on the Repubs, except you need 1 or 2 ( haven't even tried to count) to pass the Senate.

The problem is not with the Republicans, they're never gonna support any kind of reform, except for minor ins. co. adjustments.

The Blue Dogs, and the Independents, is where most of the leakage is.
That's why the numbers have tanked, Obama never had Rep. support except fleetingly, if that.
So YES ! GET IT DONE!! - i'll still want a single pay, but i'm not optimistic about anything right now.

I gotta run John, getting dark, and i have to go round up my cats.

I work crazy weekend hours, i'll try to pop in - but have yourself a GREAT weekend, if we don't talk again.

And if you call an infomercial 800 operator over the holiday - think BE KIND.
I'm just doing my job !" LOL Vaya con dios amigo
Try to enjoy the weekend...I'll be working too...

[Moby]

"Admitted doing PR?" can you provide a quote for that?
Of course.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1531490-fox-news-anchor-we-did-public-relations-for-tea-parties

Where did I ever accuse them of being Nut Cases?

You might want check on the origin of the Tea Parties and the history of the original Tea Parties.

[Moby]

Becuase I enjoy you dodging issues when confronted with FACT, pud-nit.
Why are you still a Moderator?
You should ban yourself for utter stupidity/adding nothing to this forum.
All this time I thought that you were a man of your word.

[Smurf-Herder]

Isn't that how Senior Chief has lived his entire life?

Isn't that what Fox News does by calling people "Loons" or "Pin Heads"?

I'm all for people coming up with real concerns and voicing them. I just want people to think for themselves and not do things and say things that are programmed into them.

Remember writing, "Palin Jindahl 2012" for no good reason what so ever? Was that your original thought?

No one with original thought bothers watching, listening to or following the paid pundits. NO ONE!

Palin Jindahl 2012 was an idea I agreed with at the time. I can't say I'd support that right now. A lot has happened since then. At this point, it's Anybody But Obama.

[CosmicRocker]

Of course.
http://vodpod.com/watch/1531490-fox-news-anchor-we-did-public-relations-for-tea-parties

Where did I ever accuse them of being Nut Cases?

You might want check on the origin of the Tea Parties and the history of the original Tea Parties.
she is saying" FOX is the only network that gave it coverage /PR"
she further goes on to say it was ignored by every other network.
She used the word PR=coverage.

and it IS true no- other network gave coverage.
It's a bad way to say, it, she shouldn't have used PR.

If you equate coverage with PR, then OK.
I simply look at it as Coverage vs, non Coverage

I'm quite familiar with the history of the original "baggers" it was an organic movement NOT covered by the MSM.

But like we talked about it earlier, it has devolved into the tax day protests, and the town halls. Original tea bag movements were in Feb./March.
They were soley about the incresed deficits.

The original tea bags were all over the US, on different days, by local organizers, via the NET.

after that it became a cabal with the libertarians, and assorted wackos

[doctordog]

All this time I thought that you were a man of your word.

Have you had a stroke Moby? Are you okay? This is about the 10th time I have read this line on multiple threads. Maybe your computer is fucked up, you might want to look into it.

[Smurf-Herder]

she is saying" FOX is the only network that gave it coverage /PR"
she further goes on to say it was ignored by every other network.
She used the word PR=coverage.

and it IS true no- other network gave coverage.
It's a bad way to say, it, she shouldn't have used PR.

If you equate coverage with PR, then OK.
I simply look at it as Coverage vs, non Coverage

I'm quite familiar with the history of the original "baggers" it was an organic movement NOT covered by the MSM.

But like we talked about it earlier, it has devolved into the tax day protests, and the town halls. Original tea bag movements were in Feb./March.
They were soley about the incresed deficits.

The original tea bags were all over the US, on different days, by local organizers, via the NET.

after that it became a cabal with the libertarians, and assorted wackos

The thing is, the original grass roots people are still there; and their numbers are growing.

[bairdi]

The thing is, the original grass roots people are still there; and their numbers are growing.
We shall see. The July 4th protests fizzled. This may be the last hurrah for them.

[CosmicRocker]

We shall see. The July 4th protests fizzled. This may be the last hurrah for them.
It's hard to say.
concerns about the Nat'l Debt ( my concern) is still a primary motivator.
Seniors are more concerned about the reduction to Medicare.

The libertarians want a flat tax.

ALL of this could have been avoided with better prep.
Obama ( god only knows why) started out with "policy goals" instead of a
enumerated plan.
He out sourced it to Congress, and there the special interests nibbled at it, and the Blue Dogs got spooked.

If he would have came out with Single Pay, then maybe a drop back could be a public option.


The whole thing has been so mishandled, and there is no final bill.
I'm starting to think we're gonna get nothing

[Moby]

Have you had a stroke Moby? Are you okay? This is about the 10th time I have read this line on multiple threads. Maybe your computer is fucked up, you might want to look into it.
Not at all. Senior said we was leaving and never coming back. For some reason he's still here. I want to know why he's not a man of his word. I know that means nothing to someone like you but integrity is important to many of us.

[Moby]

The thing is, the original grass roots people are still there; and their numbers are growing.
Enticed by the media at Fox News and the massive amounts of dollars funnelled by lobbyists. I best most of them don't know the history of the tea parties or the growth of deficits in America.

[CosmicRocker]

Enticed by the media at Fox News and the massive amounts of dollars funnelled by lobbyists. I best most of them don't know the history of the tea parties or the growth of deficits in America.
I agree with you, that she said PR - it's there no denying it.
I'd also like to point out the MSM didn't cover the ORIGINAL tea parties.

8000 ppl showed up in Orlando ( march) and the Orlando Sentinel had it buried on th 4th page of the local news.

"enticed" by Fox News?? that means only easily swayed watch FOX?

[bairdi]

Not at all. Senior said we was leaving and never coming back. For some reason he's still here. I want to know why he's not a man of his word. I know that means nothing to someone like you but integrity is important to many of us.
Does this surprise you? He proposed a bet with me and I accepted. When he was proven wrong, he refused to admit it and welched on the bet. I would not have held him to it, but he could not even man up and show the least amount of integrity. The man is without honor of any type.

[doctordog]

Not at all. Senior said we was leaving and never coming back. For some reason he's still here. I want to know why he's not a man of his word. I know that means nothing to someone like you but integrity is important to many of us.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

Since when is integrity important you Moby, you argue points that you haven't even read or educated yourself on and then you cite the Comedy Channel as your news source.:lmao2:

[John Galt]

ALL of this could have been avoided with better prep.
Obama ( god only knows why) started out with "policy goals" instead of a
enumerated plan.
He out sourced it to Congress, and there the special interests nibbled at it, and the Blue Dogs got spooked.

If he would have came out with Single Pay, then maybe a drop back could be a public option.


The whole thing has been so mishandled, and there is no final bill.
I'm starting to think we're gonna get nothing
Imagine that...Obama attempted to let the democratic process work...

Unlike Cheney's closed door energy policy deals w/the oil companies.

And you call Obama's approach "mishandled"?


You can't fault a guy for attempting to live by what our (ugh) founding fathers had in mind...sans the slaves in their back yards.


I just can't understand your continued judgement of a Pres. who is trying to force the nations leaders to......lead.

[John Galt]

ALL of this could have been avoided with better prep.
Obama ( god only knows why) started out with "policy goals" instead of a
enumerated plan.
He out sourced it to Congress, and there the special interests nibbled at it, and the Blue Dogs got spooked.

If he would have came out with Single Pay, then maybe a drop back could be a public option.


The whole thing has been so mishandled, and there is no final bill.
I'm starting to think we're gonna get nothing
Imagine that...Obama attempted to let the democratic process work...

Unlike Cheney's closed door energy policy deals w/the oil companies.

And you call Obama's approach "mishandled"?


You can't fault a guy for attempting to live by what our (ugh) founding fathers had in mind...sans the slaves in their back yards.


I just can't understand your continued judgement of a Pres. who is trying to force the nations leaders to......lead.

[Smurf-Herder]

Imagine that...Obama attempted to let the democratic process work...

Unlike Cheney's closed door energy policy deals w/the oil companies.

And you call Obama's approach "mishandled"?



I brought up Obama's closed door policy deals recently. And it was defended by somebody with the simplistic response that no two closed door policy deals are alike. :lmao2:

[John Galt]

I brought up Obama's closed door policy deals recently. And it was defended by somebody with the simplistic response that no two closed door policy deals are alike. :lmao2:
Can you link me? I missed it.

[Binky]

Have you had a stroke Moby? Are you okay? This is about the 10th time I have read this line on multiple threads. Maybe your computer is fucked up, you might want to look into it.


:lmao2: :lmao2: Keep stirring that turd Way. Eventually the stinky poo will envelop you.....:D

[Smurf-Herder]

Can you link me? I missed it.

Do a search. It's an isolated post somewhere out there a couple weeks back, in an unrelated thread. So I can't give you the response I received.

But here's a story on it, from the LA Times.

White House declines to disclose visits by health industry executives

Citing an argument used by the Bush administration, the Secret Service rejects a request from a watchdog group to list those who have visited the White House to discuss the healthcare overhaul.

Reporting from Washington - Invoking an argument used by President George W. Bush, the Obama administration has turned down a request from a watchdog group for a list of health industry executives who have visited the White House to discuss the massive healthcare overhaul.

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington sent a letter to the Secret Service asking about visits from 18 executives representing health insurers, drug makers, doctors and other players in the debate. The group wants the material in order to gauge the influence of those executives in crafting a new healthcare policy.

The Secret Service sent a reply stating that documents revealing the frequency of such visits were considered presidential records exempt from public disclosure laws. The agency also said it was advised by the Justice Department that the Secret Service was within its rights to withhold the information because of the "presidential communications privilege."

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics said it would file suit against the Obama administration as early as today. The group already has sued the administration over its failure to release details about visits from coal industry executives.

A White House spokesman, Ben LaBolt, said, "We are reviewing our policy on access to visitor logs and related litigation."

As a candidate, President Obama vowed that in devising a healthcare bill he would invite in TV cameras -- specifically C-SPAN -- so that Americans could have a window into negotiations that normally play out behind closed doors.

Having promised transparency, the administration should be willing to disclose who it is consulting in shaping healthcare policy, said an attorney for the citizens' group. In its letter requesting the records, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics asked about visits from Billy Tauzin, president of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America; Karen Ignagni, president of America's Health Insurance Plans; William Weldon, chairman and CEO of Johnson & Johnson; and J. James Rohack, president of the American Medical Assn., among others.

"It's extremely disappointing," said Anne Weismann, the group's chief counsel. Obama is relying on a legal argument that "continues one of the bad, anti-transparency, pro-secrecy approaches that the Bush administration had taken. And it seems completely at odds with the president's commitment . . . to bring a new level of transparency to his government."

PhRMA, which represents the nation's drug companies, said it had taken part in two meetings with senior White House officials in the Roosevelt Room. Participants, according to Tauzin, included White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, along with the CEOs of some major drug companies. Both meetings were closed to the public.

In an interview, Tauzin said most of the "real negotiations" took place with the Senate Finance Committee. At its meetings with the White House, the drug industry reported on progress made with the Senate and got a briefing from Obama officials "about how they saw" healthcare reform unfolding, Tauzin said.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-healthcare-talks22-2009jul22,0,7434392.story

[CosmicRocker]

Imagine that...Obama attempted to let the democratic process work...

Unlike Cheney's closed door energy policy deals w/the oil companies.

And you call Obama's approach "mishandled"?


You can't fault a guy for attempting to live by what our (ugh) founding fathers had in mind...sans the slaves in their back yards.


I just can't understand your continued judgement of a Pres. who is trying to force the nations leaders to......lead.
Let's play Political Hardball ! :thumbsup:

here's the deal. He tried the bi-partisian approach ( props to him for that) -
while he was inviting the Repubs in ( a good idea, and a fine ex.) he should have ALSO been working with Democratic leaders in Congress BEHIND the scenes to tell them " this is what I want"
1. Single Pay ( he never demanded it, like Hillary did during the campaign - one of the few areas where they had daylight between them)

2. "If I can't get Single Pay, then I want a public option"

In other words lead with a strong bid ( I don't play cards, so that's the best reference i can make) but have a fallback position.

3. He rushed it. He didn't have a clear plan, instead he just told everyone
" these are the elements of the bill - now you guys ( Congress) go craft it."

Thus leaving the special interest groups access to Congress.
Then the CBO numbers came out, spooking the Blue Dogs.

'Hillarycare' was defeated because of the wild flow charts held up.
But if Obama had said "here is a new way to go - the system will be like this", less all the weird boxes, the MESSAGE would be clear.
Believe it or not there are STILL ppl confused, by the Republican obfuscation.

One of the problems is the House passed Public Option, but then the August recess kicked in, before the Senate could have a bill.
If he had the Senate and the House Leaders agree first what they would accept, we wouldn't have the " gang of 6 in the Senate"
agonizing over what the Repubs will accept. Screw them ! Get your own Blue Dogs in line first, then the pressure is on the Repubs ONLY

He tried to use his popularity ( political capital) to rush it thru, thinking he had a mandate ( which he did),
without having most of the bills provisions CLEARLY DEFINED.

You can't beat something with nothing. There is no "bill to defend (final language)
By not having a clearly defined bill ( by pre-consultation with DEM leaders) , and having the answers to the questions
( look at that lastdisasterous press conference) he's left too many issues unresolved.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

I'll give you O'Reillys take on this ( and he has SCADS of viewers, like him or hate him).

This is what he said recently:

" I want to be fair :rolleyes: but Obama has had like 18 times to explain WHAT is the Bill, but he keeps changing his mind"
Of course it's Congress that is balking, and Obama is at fault for not coming out and showing us HOW this will reduce costs.
But that's what the public sees, a lack of coherent, clearly defined bill

get out the charts, start talking actual $$, WHERE are the savings, WHY is SP or public option a better deal for those already insured?

This is a tough nut to crak, lots of entrenched interests.
even if he did all i recommnend, we still might be stalemated.
But he's lost the seniors when he told them " you loose $500b over 10 years"

He's lost the Blue Dogs becauses of the CBO/OMB numbers on the debt.

He should have DEMANDED Single Pay, then had a back up bill pre-written( as much as possible) if the House shot it down( public option).

If he would have started with SP, maybe the seniors ( maybe ) wouldn't be saying " you're taking our money to fund the uninsured".

The problem is not with the Repubs - screw'em.
It's his own party, because there is no coherent message.
You know politics. Get a CLEAR SIMPLE MESSAGE and STAY on it !

[Bill Cosby]

Excellent post ROCKER........... :thumbsup:

:D

I am hoping he takes some of your advice & starts playing hardball w/ his own party as well as the other one...

Congress always does this shit--- "You can't tell us what to do".... That may be true but....

There is an old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink............... But you can make him wish he had........ :thumbsup:

You gonna tell the President, a man in your own party to go fuck himself you need to get your ass kicked in line or out... There's you fucking choice...:D

[ROdger Right]

Hey Cosby why dont you just have a couple congressman killed, it would surely get those results.

[Bill Cosby]

Hey Cosby why dont you just have a couple congressman killed, it would surely get those results.

Unlike yourself rog I don't kill................. I don't advocate or defend it except in specific incidents...

I guess ppl like yourself that go out & kill for sport would not understand that....:thumbsup:

[Smurf-Herder]

We shall see. The July 4th protests fizzled. This may be the last hurrah for them.

I don't know what the turnout was on July 4th. But you have to take into consideration that was a holiday. A lot of people travel and/or have family gatherings. We just had a Tea Party in my dinky little town this past saturday - for the first time. I didn't even know about it until after the fact, when it was reported on the local DC Fox station on Sunday. Otherwise, I probably never would have heard about it.

These demonstrations won't stop, as long as the administration keeps pissing away money during a deep recession.

[John Galt]

Let's play Political Hardball ! :thumbsup:


The best leaders, whether in the public/private sector, know when to defer to those who have more knowledge.

Obama's biggest error, was putting an unrealistic timetable together. This will come about, but it won't be until next year.

You have to remember...the repubs. have disrupted virtually every town hall event. Just think of what may have come from these opportunities, if they were allowed to have a constructive think tank approach.

Their short term goal, was to make sure that nothing got finished by the original deadline. By now, the ploy is wearing thin. It gets great results on the usual right wing media outlets, but as a whole, the nation is smarter.


This is a complex issue. I believe we'll see real progress, when the Pres. finally slams the door in the faces of the disruptive obstructionists, and rolls up his sleeves.


I'll find common ground w/the Smurf....they are all crooks. I don't, for one second, believe that they aren't getting gentle reminders about where their campaign contributions come from.

I'll say it until someone hears me....the first step, is severe campaign reform.

Then, we can move forward on a number of pressing issues.

[Mr, gone]

I will be curious to see how many of the masses will show up waving signs for this shindig. People in power laugh at those who make these feeble grunts and moans, complaining of how the government forces them to bent over.:p

[Citizen]

I already know a few people who are going to this. Gotta send a clear message to Washington!

[Mr, gone]

Sarcasim is my way of coping with what our government has become over these last several decades. I want nothing more than to see this demonstration as having impact. Though basing the likely outcome on historical precedence, the 'message' will merely end up in their bloated shedded documents building.:disbelief:

[Binky]

Sarcasim is my way of coping with what our government has become over these last several decades. I want nothing more than to see this demonstration as having impact. Though basing the likely outcome on historical precedence, the 'message' will merely end up in their bloated shedded documents building.:disbelief:


Ahhhh, ever the optimist, eh, G? :lmao2:

[Bill Cosby]

The best leaders, whether in the public/private sector, know when to defer to those who have more knowledge.

Obama's biggest error, was putting an unrealistic timetable together. This will come about, but it won't be until next year.

You have to remember...the repubs. have disrupted virtually every town hall event. Just think of what may have come from these opportunities, if they were allowed to have a constructive think tank approach.

Their short term goal, was to make sure that nothing got finished by the original deadline. By now, the ploy is wearing thin. It gets great results on the usual right wing media outlets, but as a whole, the nation is smarter.


This is a complex issue. I believe we'll see real progress, when the Pres. finally slams the door in the faces of the disruptive obstructionists, and rolls up his sleeves.


I'll find common ground w/the Smurf....they are all crooks. I don't, for one second, believe that they aren't getting gentle reminders about where their campaign contributions come from.

I'll say it until someone hears me....the first step, is severe campaign reform.

Then, we can move forward on a number of pressing issues.

Well said................. :thumbsup:

If this is gonna turn into a pissing game who will win???

IMO if Obama wants he can crush anything they can bring....

They can truck & bus all they want.... I can already smell the sweaty old spice & cheap perfume.... A few thousand pissed folks w/ care bitching about denying the same to other Americans... UGLY!!!

& typical.... The ancient, cultured capitalist in Europe did not start calling Americans knuckle draggers when bush got elected............

I am sure that well deserved "implication" has been around & well deserved since their "enlighten-unlike our enlighten" saw the light & turned their backs on inhuman involuntary servitude...

[doctordog]

Well said................. :thumbsup:

If this is gonna turn into a pissing game who will win???

IMO if Obama wants he can crush anything they can bring....

They can truck & bus all they want.... I can already smell the sweaty old spice & cheap perfume.... A few thousand pissed folks w/ care bitching about denying the same to other Americans... UGLY!!!

& typical.... The ancient, cultured capitalist in Europe did not start calling Americans knuckle draggers when bush got elected............

I am sure that well deserved "implication" has been around & well deserved since their "enlighten-unlike our enlighten" saw the light & turned their backs on inhuman involuntary servitude...

What does the czar of protest reform say about it?:D

[John Galt]

Well said................. :thumbsup:

If this is gonna turn into a pissing game who will win???

IMO if Obama wants he can crush anything they can bring....


It's simple. We were angry for about 5-6 years under the Idiot Son. The Iraq debacle was a travesty, and we all sat back and had it shoved up our asses. As collateral damage, our economy tanked, while Bushco cronies realized record breaking profits.


Now, the other side is angry. Mainly, because a negro is tainting their White House.

From the beginning, they do nothing but try to rally their base, in order to create havoc. They milked the "no birth certificate" issue for a few months. Now, they direct their mindless masses to disrupt any and all discussion of healthcare reform.


They really believe that they can keep this up indefinitely. Trust me, Obama isn't going to stand for this much longer. He tried to put our system of govt. back on the right track by bringing the opposition into his cabinet. He tried to find an answer to the healthcare issue, by the old fashioned means of gathering as many minds as he can, and coming up with an intelligent plan.


He simply will not sit by, and watch this mockery go on any longer. And...this game of obstructionism will come back during the midterms, and bite the repubs. in the ass. If we have to wait til 2011 to get this done, with an even bigger majority, then so be it.


Obama ain't going away any time soon. Unless the Dog's of the world get a shot at him.


Fuck em...they're pissed. It's a great feeling.

[doctordog]

It's simple. We were angry for about 5-6 years under the Idiot Son. The Iraq debacle was a travesty, and we all sat back and had it shoved up our asses. As collateral damage, our economy tanked, while Bushco cronies realized record breaking profits.


Now, the other side is angry. Mainly, because a negro is tainting their White House.

From the beginning, they do nothing but try to rally their base, in order to create havoc. They milked the "no birth certificate" issue for a few months. Now, they direct their mindless masses to disrupt any and all discussion of healthcare reform.


They really believe that they can keep this up indefinitely. Trust me, Obama isn't going to stand for this much longer. He tried to put our system of govt. back on the right track by bringing the opposition into his cabinet. He tried to find an answer to the healthcare issue, by the old fashioned means of gathering as many minds as he can, and coming up with an intelligent plan.


He simply will not sit by, and watch this mockery go on any longer. And...this game of obstructionism will come back during the midterms, and bite the repubs. in the ass. If we have to wait til 2011 to get this done, with an even bigger majority, then so be it.


Obama ain't going away any time soon. Unless the Dog's of the world get a shot at him.


Fuck em...they're pissed. It's a great feeling.

Fuck you asshat!

[Environment Man]

I'm gonna go to this.

I'll report back to DCJ.

I hope I get to meet Sarah Palin.

[Mr, gone]

I hope I get to meet Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin??? Seriously??? :lmao2:

[Mr, gone]

Ahhhh, ever the optimist, eh, G? :lmao2:

Reality shit all over my garments about ten years ago... And now having run out of the detergent of optimism, I am forced to stand here naked before you...

[Bill Cosby]

It's simple. We were angry for about 5-6 years under the Idiot Son. The Iraq debacle was a travesty, and we all sat back and had it shoved up our asses. As collateral damage, our economy tanked, while Bushco cronies realized record breaking profits.


Now, the other side is angry. Mainly, because a negro is tainting their White House.

From the beginning, they do nothing but try to rally their base, in order to create havoc. They milked the "no birth certificate" issue for a few months. Now, they direct their mindless masses to disrupt any and all discussion of healthcare reform.


They really believe that they can keep this up indefinitely. Trust me, Obama isn't going to stand for this much longer. He tried to put our system of govt. back on the right track by bringing the opposition into his cabinet. He tried to find an answer to the healthcare issue, by the old fashioned means of gathering as many minds as he can, and coming up with an intelligent plan.


He simply will not sit by, and watch this mockery go on any longer. And...this game of obstructionism will come back during the midterms, and bite the repubs. in the ass. If we have to wait til 2011 to get this done, with an even bigger majority, then so be it.


Obama ain't going away any time soon. Unless the Dog's of the world get a shot at him.


Fuck em...they're pissed. It's a great feeling.

Tell it John tell it!!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[doctordog]

Tell it John tell it!!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

He can stick that dog comment up his ass if he can get dsolo to get out of the way.

[John Galt]

He can stick that dog comment up his ass if he can get dsolo to get out of the way.
Hit a nerve, bigot?

At least own up to your bigotry, or exchange the watermelon picture for tomatoes.

You've got the right to make racial slurs. Own them, for once.

[CosmicRocker]

The best leaders, whether in the public/private sector, know when to defer to those who have more knowledge.

Obama's biggest error, was putting an unrealistic timetable together. This will come about, but it won't be until next year.

You have to remember...the repubs. have disrupted virtually every town hall event. Just think of what may have come from these opportunities, if they were allowed to have a constructive think tank approach.

Their short term goal, was to make sure that nothing got finished by the original deadline. By now, the ploy is wearing thin. It gets great results on the usual right wing media outlets, but as a whole, the nation is smarter.


This is a complex issue. I believe we'll see real progress, when the Pres. finally slams the door in the faces of the disruptive obstructionists, and rolls up his sleeves.


I'll find common ground w/the Smurf....they are all crooks. I don't, for one second, believe that they aren't getting gentle reminders about where their campaign contributions come from.

I'll say it until someone hears me....the first step, is severe campaign reform.

Then, we can move forward on a number of pressing issues. Campaign reform? What difference would that have made in electing Obama or not? If anything Obama had plenty more money than HRClinton or McCain.

You keep referring to the Republicans, and I KEEP TELLING YOU LOOK at the polls you easily dismiss.
Obama's numbers haven't moved much in the Republican count - where he's lost most of his ground is Independents, and the progressive left.

The progressive left says he isn't gojgng fast enough, and they want Single Pay still.

The Indes are more afraid of the deficits, and the fact that Congress COULD EASILY make a bad stiuation worse.

Also the seniors - you seem to forget them.
They are largely Democrats, who are pushing back at the removal of funding to Medicare to support the public option.

Yes the timing was bad, so was the planning and execution.
Obama has had a largely hands off approach, which has let other factions determine the debate issues.

Let's see what his speech acccomplihes tomorrow, and we'll make some new judgements on his leadership ( or continued lack of) abilities.

The best leaders, whether in the public/private sector, know when to defer to those who have more knowledge.
No. the best leaders LEAD! not outsourse vague "policy goals"

[doctordog]

Hit a nerve, bigot?

At least own up to your bigotry, or exchange the watermelon picture for tomatoes.

You've got the right to make racial slurs. Own them, for once.

Go to school, slurs are words not pictures. Remember the New Yorker? Making accusations that certain groups of people will kill the President without any evidence to support it is clearly against the rules. Sounds like your bigotry knows no bounds.

[John Galt]

Campaign reform? What difference would that have made in electing Obama or not?
There are more elections in this country, than that which brings us the new President.

Why exactly do you think Congress is dragging its feet w/healthcare? Because their campaign contributors are waving checkbooks in their faces, challenging them to keep the status quo.



The progressive left says he isn't gojgng fast enough, and they want Single Pay still.

See above

The Indes are more afraid of the deficits, and the fact that Congress COULD EASILY make a bad stiuation worse.


Handouts to uninsured people cost money too. Those who worry about deficits, no doubt get free/almost free healthcare from their jobs. We, who pay heavily, need some relief.
Also the seniors - you seem to forget them.
They are largely Democrats, who are pushing back at the removal of funding to Medicare to support the public option.

They're pushing back at something they heard about in a rumor.
Yes the timing was bad, so was the planning and execution.
Obama has had a largely hands off approach, which has let other factions determine the debate issues.
There is no debate. For the most part, it sounds a lot like this message board.



Let's see what his speech acccomplihes tomorrow, and we'll make some new judgements on his leadership ( or continued lack of) abilities.
This speech tomorrow, has nothing to do with leadership. We already tried "a guy you'd like to have a beer with" for President. Look how well that worked out.


Inspiring the nation's youth to excel, should be a no brainer. It's unfortunate that our nation has fallen so far, in a mere 3 or 4 decades. The destruction of the family unit in this country, is a big issue. One that you can't fix by governing.

No. the best leaders LEAD! not outsourse vague "policy goals"
I'll make believe you didn't say this.

[Cookie]

Handouts to uninsured people cost money too. Those who worry about deficits, no doubt get free/almost free healthcare from their jobs. We, who pay heavily, need some relief.


Why aren't people willing to take responsibility for their choices? If a person chooses not to work for a company or business, where insurance may be provided, they are free to get a healthcare policy of their own.

Why should they want others who may least be able to afford it, to subsidize their healthcare?
________
HALF-BAKED (http://half-baked.com)

[John Galt]

Why aren't people willing to take responsibility for their choices? If a person chooses not to work for a company or business, where insurance may be provided, they are free to get a healthcare policy of their own.

Why should they want others who may least be able to afford it, to subsidize their healthcare?
That's a good question, and a complex issue.

For instance, I saw a conservative on Real Time a few weeks ago, who was railing against forcing a 25 year old to get insurance...

What happens if he breaks a leg? We assume 25 year olds don't get sick...another fallacy, but if he's got no insurance, who's gonna pay for his medical care?

He can be billed for he rest of his life, and he may or may not pay. But...our rates are sky high, and this is a small part of the reason.



I could be wrong, but throughout the country, most employers have to at least offer (not necessarily pay for)a plan to employees. Smaller businesses are probably exempt.


There are a lot of choices. "Getting a policy of their own" isn't always possible. Have you tried to shop for one? It's crazy. Small business owners have certain options, but you either pay crazy premiums, or you choose to have an astronomical deductible...as I do.

[doctordog]

That's a good question, and a complex issue.

For instance, I saw a conservative on Real Time a few weeks ago, who was railing against forcing a 25 year old to get insurance...

What happens if he breaks a leg? We assume 25 year olds don't get sick...another fallacy, but if he's got no insurance, who's gonna pay for his medical care?

He can be billed for he rest of his life, and he may or may not pay. But...our rates are sky high, and this is a small part of the reason.



I could be wrong, but throughout the country, most employers have to at least offer (not necessarily pay for)a plan to employees. Smaller businesses are probably exempt.


There are a lot of choices. "Getting a policy of their own" isn't always possible. Have you tried to shop for one? It's crazy. Small business owners have certain options, but you either pay crazy premiums, or you choose to have an astronomical deductible...as I do.

that is what I used to have and comparing cost to what I have now, they are about the same. I had $5000 deductable before and paid all perscription and office visit cost and the cost was about $2400/year. I now pay a monthly premium through my company the cost is about $2400/year.

[Cookie]

That's a good question, and a complex issue.

For instance, I saw a conservative on Real Time a few weeks ago, who was railing against forcing a 25 year old to get insurance...

What happens if he breaks a leg? We assume 25 year olds don't get sick...another fallacy, but if he's got no insurance, who's gonna pay for his medical care?

He can be billed for he rest of his life, and he may or may not pay. But...our rates are sky high, and this is a small part of the reason.



I could be wrong, but throughout the country, most employers have to at least offer (not necessarily pay for)a plan to employees. Smaller businesses are probably exempt.


There are a lot of choices. "Getting a policy of their own" isn't always possible. Have you tried to shop for one? It's crazy. Small business owners have certain options, but you either pay crazy premiums, or you choose to have an astronomical deductible...as I do.

If a 25 yo opts out and breaks his leg, he pays for it. Choices have consequences. He could sell his truck and get something cheaper and less
glamorous until his hospital bill is paid off. Garnish his wages. Put a lean on his house. Confiscate his income tax refunds until the debt is repaid. Prevent him from taking out other loans, etc.

I think a company with less than 50 employees isn't obligated to offer health insurance. ???
________
Iolite vaporizer (http://vaporizers.net/iolite-vaporizer)

[Bill Cosby]

Sounds nice cookie.........

But lets say he has no coverage via his job.... His parents toss his partying ass out @ 18 & he picks up trash & sweeps around construction sites for cash, off the books... That way they don't take it for his child support in another state...

He drinks & smokes most of his money & just so happens to show up @ moms house around dinner time several times a week.....

Now he is out @ the site checking out some girl walking past & falls down & breaks his leg............. He does not even have car to drive down to the ER.... The other guys tell him he can crawl down there as they carry him off the site for insurance purposes...

They set him down on the curb & tell him not to come back & give him $40 for a half day work...

Finally one of the guys feels sorry for him & takes him down to the ER on his lunch... Dumps him @ the entrance & drives off..........

I guess you know the deal from there...

Who is gonna pay for this fucking loZers care???

I will tell yea YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! & me....

The construction workers would have been content to watch him die on the curb... The hospital workers will not....

[John Galt]

If a 25 yo opts out and breaks his leg, he pays for it. Choices have consequences. He could sell his truck and get something cheaper and less
glamorous until his hospital bill is paid off.

In a perfect world, yes. We both know that this is the exception, rather than the rule.

Garnish his wages. Put a lean on his house. Confiscate his income tax refunds until the debt is repaid. Prevent him from taking out other loans, etc.
I believe that as long as he sends in $1.00/month, he can't be touched.
I think a company with less than 50 employees isn't obligated to offer health insurance. ???
This is a state to state issue.

Perhaps there will be federal guidelines in the future.



It sounds like Wayers had a plan like mine...

3 years ago, I opted to stop my monthly premiums that were increasing 20%/year. I was up to app. $600.00/month, and I'm healthy, and don't typically frequent doctors.


I opted to take a $5-$6000.00 deductible, and pay less than $200.00/yr.

As a business owner, I can have a HSA with this plan. The beauty, is that I get my ins. co's negotiated rates when I go to a doctor.


I can put $3000.00/year in my HSA...tax deductible...to be used only for medical purposes. In three years, I have pocketed almost $15,000.00, because I've been healthy/lucky.

[MichMike]

Why aren't people willing to take responsibility for their choices? If a person chooses not to work for a company or business, where insurance may be provided, they are free to get a healthcare policy of their own.

Why should they want others who may least be able to afford it, to subsidize their healthcare?


Hopefully I'm on topic here...it's been a long thread. The main problem with this angle centers on the fact that government has - through massive tax breaks - given people that work for large companies HUGE advantages over individuals and small businesses. As a result, large companies often pick up 67% of a workers healthcare....creating an unfortunate disconnect between people and the real costs of healthcare. This is one area where we need the free market to take hold. Let employers buy insurance at a group rate, but get rid of the tax break. This would force people to deal with the crazy costs associated with real healthcare. It would encourage some to seek individual insurance with would likely force insurance companies to come down on costs. More people would be in favor of insurance reform as well.

Note: government needs to be involved with healthcare as demand in inelastic. I fully support large chunks of the house and senate bills in the area of health reform and out of pocket caps (not to mention medicare, medicaid and Schip for the vulnerable), but this is one area where the government distortion is hurting the system and politicians are afraid to make waves.