Feds failed to clear brush in LA wildfire area

[Citizen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/ap_on_re_us/us_wildfires_prescribed_burns

LOS ANGELES – Federal authorities failed to follow through on plans earlier this year to burn away highly flammable brush in a forest on the edge of Los Angeles to avoid the very kind of wildfire now raging there, The Associated Press has learned.

The U.S. Forest Service said that months before the huge blaze erupted, it obtained permits to burn away the undergrowth on more than 1,700 acres of the Angeles National Forest. But just 193 acres had been cleared by the time the fire broke out, the agency said.

The agency defended its efforts, saying weather, wind and environmental rules tightly limit how often these "prescribed burns" can be conducted.

Also, Forest Service resource officer Steve Bear said crews using machinery and hand tools managed to trim 5,000 acres in the forest this year before the money ran out.

Could more have been done to clear tinder-dry hillsides and canyons?

"We don't necessarily disagree with that," Bear said. "We weren't able to complete what we wanted to do."

Some critics suggested that protests from environmentalists contributed to the disaster, which came after the brush was allowed to build up for as much as 40 years.

"This brush was ready to explode," said Los Angeles County Supervisor Mike Antonovich, whose district overlaps the forest. "The environmentalists have gone to the extreme to prevent controlled burns, and as a result we have this catastrophe today."

Prescribed burns are intended to protect homes and lives by eliminating fuel that can cause explosive wildfires. The wildfire that has blackened 140,000 acres — or nearly 219 square miles — in the forest over the past week has been fed by the kind of tinder-dry vegetation that prescribed burns are designed to safely devour.

The blaze has destroyed more than five dozen homes, killed two firefighters and forced thousands of people to flee. Firefighters reported modest progress Wednesday as investigators said the blaze was human-caused, though it was not clear exactly how the fire started or whether it was accidental or arson.

Figures from the California's South Coast Air Quality Management District suggested even less was protectively burned. The agency said it granted seven permits sought by the Forest Service to conduct prescribed burns on 2,748 acres in the forest this year. The agency reviews such requests to ensure air quality in the often-smoggy Los Angeles area will not be worsened by smoke from intentional fires. But records show only 12.8 acres burned.

Four of the permits, totaling 1,257 acres, were granted in areas involved in the wildfire, according to the air quality agency.

But the Forest Service disputed those figures. Bear said the plan was to burn 1,748 acres, and 193 were cleared.

Government firefighters set thousands of blazes each year to reduce the wildfire risk in overgrown forests and grasslands around the nation. Prescribed burns can also improve overall forest health and increase forage for wildlife.

Obtaining the necessary permits is a complicated process, and such efforts often draw protests from environmentalists.

Calls to the Sierra Club for comment were not immediately returned.

Setting pre-emptive fires can be especially risky near heavily populated urban areas like Los Angeles because of the danger of flames burning out of control. Last month, a 90-acre prescribed burn near Foresta, on the edge of Yosemite National Park, jumped fire lines and consumed more than 7 square miles in the park.

On Tuesday, Angeles National Forest Supervisor Jody Noiron defended his employees' efforts to reduce the fire risk. "The Angeles Forest has been pretty aggressive about implementing fuels-reduction projects with the funds we are given," she said.

Los Angeles fire Capt. Steve Ruda said that pre-emptive fires were used more frequently in the region in the 1980s. But a growing backcountry population and increasingly complicated environmental rules have made them less frequent.

Conducting a prescribed burn requires a detailed study of wind, terrain, temperature and humidity and reviews by a host of government entities, including air-quality regulators.

Max Moritz, co-director of the Center for Fire Research and Outreach at the University of California at Berkeley, said there is wide discussion about the need to do more prescribed burns to reduce the fire hazard. But "you have this difficult needle you have to thread to find the right place, the right conditions, to pull it off," Moritz said.

Ultimately, he said, the answer is to stop building in fire-prone areas instead of spending huge sums on firefighting.

Steve Brink, a vice president with the California Forestry Association, an industry group, said as many as 8 million acres of national forest in California are overgrown and at risk of wildfire. He said that too few days provide the conditions necessary for larger, prescribed burns and that the Forest Service needs to speed up programs to thin forests, largely by machine.

"Special interest groups that don't want them to do it have appeals and litigation through the courts to stall or stop any project they wish. Consequently, the Forest Service is not able to put a dent in the problem," Brink said.

[Bill Cosby]

Living here on the left coast this is an issue I hear & experience a lot.;..

What are your thoughts on dealing w/ this issue???

[Smurf-Herder]

I've been hearing this every time there have been major California fires for the past few years. It's always because they never clear the brush; and they always keep bringing the same reason up. Why isn't anybody learning from this?

[Zebulon0351]

Living here on the left coast this is an issue I hear & experience a lot.;..

What are your thoughts on dealing w/ this issue???


Somehow Hog or SC will blame it on Obama.

[Bill Cosby]

I've been hearing this every time there have been major California fires for the past few years. It's always because they never clear the brush; and they always keep bringing the same reason up. Why isn't anybody learning from this?

What are they to learn???? That is what I am asking....

The forest can not be cut..... problem!!!

The forest can not be cleared. problem!!!

This is a natural phenomena that they are trying to prevent...

By hindering/preventing fire they only make the situation worse next time around as there is a lot more to burn.... It will burn, it is only a matter of time...

They let yellowstone burn & ppl still complain about it...

[Citizen]

Living here on the left coast this is an issue I hear & experience a lot.;..

What are your thoughts on dealing w/ this issue???

Loosen restrictions on permits and allow them to burn what they need to burn and also as the article states "the answer is to stop building in fire-prone areas instead of spending huge sums on firefighting." There's too much fucking red tape and special interest interference. Let them do what they need to do to prevent the entire state from ending up in flames. Its only going to get worse because even after this they'll still do everything to prevent them. ITS NOT DEFORESTATION! ITS A PREVENTATIVE MEASURE! My God they couldn't even complete 20% of the burns necessary.

If you don't like these controlled burns then I hope you love 140,000 acres of wildfire instead of 1,700 acres of prescribed burns.

[doctordog]

Loosen restrictions on permits and allow them to burn what they need to burn and also as the article states "the answer is to stop building in fire-prone areas instead of spending huge sums on firefighting." There's too much fucking red tape and special interest interference. Let them do what they need to do to prevent the entire state from ending up in flames. Its only going to get worse because even after this they'll still do everything to prevent them. ITS NOT DEFORESTATION! ITS A PREVENTATIVE MEASURE! My God they couldn't even complete 20% of the burns necessary.

If you don't like these controlled burns then I hope you love 140,000 acres of wildfire instead of 1,700 acres of prescribed burns.

It is a simple appetizer of what is in store for California politicians when they pay the ultimate price for all their misdeeds.

[chao]

Living here on the left coast this is an issue I hear & experience a lot.;..

What are your thoughts on dealing w/ this issue???
They recently clear cut all the eucalyptus trees in my area. They go up like Roman candles and they're an introduced species.

I've lived here a LONG time, and the fires in the past 10 years are like nothing I've ever seen before. One of the reasons I moved from my place in San Diego was because I was surrounded by fire for four days in 2003, and my lungs never really recovered from all the shit in the air from the 230 homes that burned in my neighborhood. I can just imagine all the toxic crap in that smoke from burning vinyl and other plastics.

Managed burns used to help. Money to clear brush would help even more.

[foxbaron]

There is a simple solution.

Ignore the law and clear the brush away from yoiur house.

Blame it on vandals/

[Bill Cosby]

Loosen restrictions on permits and allow them to burn what they need to burn and also as the article states "the answer is to stop building in fire-prone areas instead of spending huge sums on firefighting." There's too much fucking red tape and special interest interference. Let them do what they need to do to prevent the entire state from ending up in flames. Its only going to get worse because even after this they'll still do everything to prevent them. ITS NOT DEFORESTATION! ITS A PREVENTATIVE MEASURE! My God they couldn't even complete 20% of the burns necessary.

If you don't like these controlled burns then I hope you love 140,000 acres of wildfire instead of 1,700 acres of prescribed burns.

Yep the MISSmanagement is making things much, much worse...

I have property north of here @ the foothills 25 years ago there were several mills operating there now one. Barely... I was up @ my place there & the smoke was so think it was like looking through watery milk........ Horrible...

They don't cut so it burns....

The air quality restrictions here are very, very tough & the state can not exceed many of these mandates w/out penalty.... There are several air zones in Calif & they are measuring it all the time w/ consequences.........

There is little money for it & not many opportune times to do the burns.......

How are you on logging??? I am not for clear cut in most cases....

Also they use prisoners to fight the fires why not to prevent them???

[Bill Cosby]

There is a simple solution.

Ignore the law and clear the brush away from yoiur house.

Blame it on vandals/

Say you have cleared 200 feet all around your property but no one else has or you are next to land you can not clear for whatever reasons...??

[foxbaron]

Put in a moat. Blame it on earthquakes

[Bill Cosby]

Put in a moat. Blame it on earthquakes

Who is gonna pay for that moat??? to maintain it & the water needed???

Some of these homes are real expensive & not filled w/ dry brush & all that...

Building in tall trees on hillsides in dry areas like here is asking for trouble...

Over in the east bay (oakland hills) they had a huge fire.......... No way they could do anything...... Nice houses on a shady hillside full of huge redwoods, pines & oaks & the worst eucalyptus........... The redwoods won't burn but all the rest of that...........>>> You got 150 foot matchsticks surrounding your house...

[Citizen]

Yep the MISSmanagement is making things much, much worse...

I have property north of here @ the foothills 25 years ago there were several mills operating there now one. Barely... I was up @ my place there & the smoke was so think it was like looking through watery milk........ Horrible...

They don't cut so it burns....

The air quality restrictions here are very, very tough & the state can not exceed many of these mandates w/out penalty.... There are several air zones in Calif & they are measuring it all the time w/ consequences.........

There is little money for it & not many opportune times to do the burns.......

How are you on logging??? I am not for clear cut in most cases....

Also they use prisoners to fight the fires why not to prevent them???

There is a general consensus that there are much more trees in America today than there were 200 years ago and the number is growing. So as for logging I wouldn't concern myself too much with that in the US. Axemen/loggers have one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet so my heart goes out to them and their families at least.

From this type of standpoint there really needs to be only one main 'voice' and not long drawn out litigations while hazards could be developing.

[Bill Cosby]

& how would that be done??? one main 'voice' As you know there are hundreds of fingers in this. City country state fed............. Air, water, animal private, public property etc...

[Citizen]

& how would that be done??? As you know there are hundreds of fingers in this. City country state fed............. Air, water, animal private, public property etc...

As for private property it would be smart of them to stop building in such hazardous areas to begin with. If these common dangers are known then risk must have been assessed by the buyer. The county must let it be well known the pre-existing condition for the necessity to burn & clear brush. The right to private property comes a responsibility not to hinder on other individuals' private properties. In this case it has to be allowed for preventative measures and guidelines regardless of say-so of the individual. Other than in those cases of private property I don't see a necessity for this to trump over those in any case if it is used to prevent something widespread and 100x worse/uncontrolled.

[Bill Cosby]

What about the one main voice you mentioned???

[Citizen]

What about the one main voice you mentioned???

One main voice I would guess the Forest Service resource. I'd have to look into it more. But these constant conflicting interests HAVE TO STOP!

[Bill Cosby]

Well if you get time or interest would be interested in hearing something...
I don't think local or state is going to be able to touch it... hell many of the fires burning now are on Federal land...

Such a tangled web we weave.....

[Citizen]

Well if you get time or interest would be interested in hearing something...
I don't think local or state is going to be able to touch it... hell many of the fires burning now are on Federal land...

Such a tangled web we weave.....

I don't live in the area and well its better for those first hand in preventing these dangers are best to comment (the U.S. Forest Service). Looking at the facts in this case it is apparent environmentalists who were preventing these, you have to admit at the very least have their footprints on this mess. They need be silenced if the results are these disasters.

[Bill Cosby]

I don't live in the area and well its better for those first hand in preventing these dangers are best to comment (the U.S. Forest Service). Looking at the facts in this case it is apparent environmentalists who were preventing these, you have to admit at the very least have their footprints on this mess. They need be silenced if the results are these disasters.

Sounds harsh but essentially I think that lots of those "environmentalist" made mistakes & really didn't know what they were doing. They are certainly a huge part of the problem....

You can save an old tree from an axe............ Good luck saving that fucker from a wild fire....

[Citizen]

Sounds harsh but essentially I think that lots of those "environmentalist" made mistakes & really didn't know what they were doing. They are certainly a huge part of the problem....

You can save an old tree from an axe............ Good luck saving that fucker from a wild fire....

Nothing harsh about it... If they are the cause/big reason for the destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of forests and property. I would say to them, "Please for the love of God shut up, go away and stop destroying our forest and private property!" Of course that looks like a very small 'if' in this case.

[Moby]

There is a general consensus that there are much more trees in America today than there were 200 years ago and the number is growing.
That's interesting.

I haven't heard that before. Never really thought about it before and I can't seem to find any accurate or even somewhat credible information on it.

Do you have some more information on it? I'm just curious. I'm not a tree hugger and I don't think logging is having a major impact on the environment in the USA but you point to an interesting bit of information and I'd be fascinated to read something on it.

[Bill Cosby]

You said silenced.... That sounds harsh to me ...... DunnO

I think we are essentially on the same page though.......

They should have a voice as should others... Their voice should not be taken w/ as much weight, especially in the courts... You have legalistic determining environmental laws............ It even sounds nuts..

& their bases for determination is based on laws written by politicians & some of these folks...

About 80 miles from here is a place called big trees.... The Giant Sequoia, a type of redwood tree.... Even bigger than the coastal redwoods in girth...

They (most of the red wood species) are almost impervious to fire + they are so tall it does not do much more than scorch the lower bark... Anyway for about a hundred years these fools have "protected" the hell out of them & were all standing about scratching their heads wondering why no new seedlings............

Then they got sloppy & a fire came in & burned up the brush & was so hot it scorched the earth (Exactly what the cones needed)... After the fire all these seedling pop up.......... Lots of slapping ones self on the forehead I imagine...lol Given more time these idiots would have managed them into extinction...

http://www.pasaporteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/base-de-sequoia-gigante.jpg

[Bill Cosby]

That's interesting.

I haven't heard that before. Never really thought about it before and I can't seem to find any accurate or even somewhat credible information on it.

Do you have some more information on it? I'm just curious. I'm not a tree hugger and I don't think logging is having a major impact on the environment in the USA but you point to an interesting bit of information and I'd be fascinated to read something on it.

I will be to.... The big prominent of the idea, if I recall was "the entertainer"... @ least when he was here in Sacto... I have not heard anyone else saying it...

That there are now more trees in the usa then there was 4oo years ago or something... ???

[Citizen]

The past 100 years have been very stagnant before that was the Industrial Revolution.

http://rainforests.mongabay.com/deforestation/2000/United_States_of_America.htm

United States of America
33.1% —or about 303,089,000 hectares—of United States of America is forested. Of this, 34.4% —or roughly 104,182,000 hectares—is classified as primary forest, the most biodiverse form of forest.

Change in Forest Cover: Between 1990 and 2000, United States of America gained an average of 364,600 hectares of forest per year. The amounts to an average annual reforestation rate of 0.12%. Between 2000 and 2005, the rate of forest change decreased by 56.9% to 0.05% per annum. In total, between 1990 and 2005, United States of America gained 1.5% of its forest cover, or around 4,441,000 hectares. United States of America lost -1,086,000 hectares—0—of its primary forest cover during that time. Deforestation rates of primary cover have decreased 1.0% since the close of the 1990s. Measuring the total rate of habitat conversion (defined as change in forest area plus change in woodland area minus net plantation expansion) for the 1990-2005 interval, United States of America lost 0.8% of its forest and woodland habitat.

Biodiversity and Protected Areas: United States has some 2001 known species of amphibians, birds, mammals and reptiles according to figures from the World Conservation Monitoring Centre. Of these, 26.3% are endemic, meaning they exist in no other country, and 9.4% are threatened. United States is home to at least 19473 species of vascular plants, of which 20.7% are endemic. 8.4% of United States is protected under IUCN categories I-V.

[foxbaron]

Maybe we should tie the envoromentalists to the trees........................right before the next round of wildfires.

[Dale escondido]

There is a general consensus that there are much more trees in America today than there were 200 years ago and the number is growing. So as for logging I wouldn't concern myself too much with that in the US. Axemen/loggers have one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet so my heart goes out to them and their families at least.

From this type of standpoint there really needs to be only one main 'voice' and not long drawn out litigations while hazards could be developing.

James river paper, international and georgia pacific all have tree farms with millions of trees grown to harvest.
These are quickly growing breeds and harvested and replanted continually.
Old growth and hardwoods are almost gone now.

I read your post and I travel the us constantly and just dont see old growth except in a few areas.