When Do Soldiers Give Away Their Citizenship...and for how long?

[stefan segal]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0608/p03s03-usmi.html

For US military veterans, a free-speech dispute
Three marines in the Individual Ready Reserve face potential discipline for taking antiwar stands.
By Tom A. Peter | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
Page 1 of 2

Having received an honorable discharge from active duty, former Marine Sgt. Adam Kokesh thought he could once again partake in all the privileges of civilian life, namely free speech. So Mr. Kokesh, who'd served one tour of duty in Fallujah with a civil affairs unit, became active in the antiwar movement.

There was one problem, though: Kokesh wasn't technically out of the military. He was still part of the Individual Ready Reserve (IRR), a gray area of military service where personnel are neither active duty nor entirely civilians. So when Marine Corps officials noticed pictures in The Washington Post of Kokesh protesting while wearing pieces of his uniform – OK for civilians, not for anyone in the military – they took disciplinary action. On Monday, the Corps recommended a downgrade of Kokesh's honorable discharge to a general discharge.

That probably won't affect his veterans' benefits. But two other marines in the IRR face similar charges and risk losing their veterans' benefits, such as healthcare and money for education

[kres24GT]

From the time you sign the contract until the time your contract is up.There is no freedom in the military.

When you think about it, the same goes in the private sector as well.

[stefan segal]

Kres...in reading the article...these guys already were discharged...no longer were in the reserve...recieved their discharge papers. This is the contract I signed up for 4 years active, 2 active reserves, and 2 inactive reserves..then I recieved my discharge...as the subjects of this article...contract completed.

I had a top secret clearance and couldn't disperse my notions of atomic weaponry and handling that I learned, but there was nothing mentioned about voicing or even having printed a personal opinion about the service.

If there were some actual contractual infraction by these anti war veterans, then I'm sure the military would have them locked up already. My thought is they are harassing these veterans illegally and stupidly stealling from them and need a bit of harassing themselves.
Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...in reading the article...these guys already were discharged...no longer were in the reserve...recieved their discharge papers. This is the contract I signed up for 4 years active, 2 active reserves, and 2 inactive reserves..then I recieved my discharge...as the subjects of this article...contract completed.

I had a top secret clearance and couldn't disperse my notions of atomic weaponry and handling that I learned, but there was nothing mentioned about voicing or even having printed a personal opinion about the service.

If there were some actual contractual infraction by these anti war veterans, then I'm sure the military would have them locked up already. My thought is they are harassing these veterans illegally and stupidly stealling from them and need a bit of harassing themselves.
Stefan


Might want to read again. The article says they were in the IRR at the time.

[stefan segal]

Might want to read again. The article says they were in the IRR at the time.

Kres...I believe it said they were neither in the active nor inactive reserves...this other state of being you mention is the whole question...it isn't defined or has it obvious limits...it was this, in my view, unlawful response by the military that was my reason for posting it in the first place.

When is one free of the military? When one compleats the written contract honorably and is discharged...what does "discharged" signify in English? Certainly "discharged" carries a more finalized notion than 'separation papers' which are issued upon the satisfactory completion of one's active duty.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...I believe it said they were neither in the active nor inactive reserves...this other state of being you mention is the whole question...it isn't defined or has it obvious limits...it was this, in my view, unlawful response by the military that was my reason for posting it in the first place.

When is one free of the military? When one compleats the written contract honorably and is discharged...what does "discharged" signify in English? Certainly "discharged" carries a more finalized notion than 'separation papers' which are issued upon the satisfactory completion of one's active duty.

Stefan


One is free once he completes his contract. I am sorry if you can't read, but the story clearly says they were members of the IRR, hence their contracts were not served. I don't see how I can point it out any clearer than the story does. Even the portion you posted says they were in the IRR.

My IRR ended in May of last year at which point my contract was up (6 years reserve, 2 IRR )and my honorable discharge granted.

[stefan segal]

Kres...I also read English...I signed up for 4 asctive and 2+2 reserves...so from what you have reported, they have upped the reserve years by doubling.

My question is when does a citizen loose their right to voice their opinion when it is not classified but contradictory to policy.

Lets talk about the question.

Stefan

[Linkster]

Stefan - has nothing to do with freedom of speech - especially in this case - as already mentioned they were still under "contract" and therefore under the UCMJ which makes it illegal to speak against the military or government while wearing any part of the uniform - you can do it all you want if youre in civilian clothes while youre in the military - they were wearing part of their uniform which made it illegal

[kres24GT]

Stefan - has nothing to do with freedom of speech - especially in this case - as already mentioned they were still under "contract" and therefore under the UCMJ which makes it illegal to speak against the military or government while wearing any part of the uniform - you can do it all you want if youre in civilian clothes while youre in the military - they were wearing part of their uniform which made it illegal


stefan does not understand this.

I am now a civilian but if publicly criticized the private company I work for now, I would be fired and lose my benefits.

The fact this is in a contract in the case of military personnel makes it even more cut and dry.

There is no story here. It is very simple. Stefan is either retarded or has some sort of sinister motive here. He will listen to no one who does anything other than follow his motive here.


Any person who isn't politically blinded and has an IQ of over 6 know there is no debate here.

[Linkster]

I guess you are all missing the point - you can criticize the government publicly all you want while youre in the military - you just cant do it IN UNIFORM - thats the actual law they are breaking - which in the case of the military is the military law - the UCMJ

[kres24GT]

I guess you are all missing the point - you can criticize the government publicly all you want while youre in the military - you just cant do it IN UNIFORM - thats the actual law they are breaking - which in the case of the military is the military law - the UCMJ


That is incorrect. Under Article 134 you can be charged with anything form unauthorized toenail clippings to criticizing the government.

[kres24GT]

What it boils down to in response to stefans question is people in the military agree in contract to sacrifice pretty much all of their rights for the term onf their contract. These men were still under contract and subject, per their own agreement, to the penalty of the UCMJ. It's clear cut here. No debate to have.

Whether you agree/disagree it is the only way to have an effective military.

[stefan segal]

Okay Kres...I believe you are most likely legally correct in your above statement, but to me it's like signing a car rental contract. If you read through one of those contracts, you legally sign your life away in it...Not something a sentient adult human would do knowingly.

Kids of highschool age should require a document from thier lawyer before qualifying to sign ten years of their rights away.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Okay Kres...I believe you are most likely legally correct in your above statement, but to me it's like signing a car rental contract. If you read through one of those contracts, you legally sign your life away in it...Not something a sentient adult human would do knowingly.

Kids of highschool age should require a document from thier lawyer before qualifying to sign ten years of their rights away.

Stefan



And for kids like me who didn't have a lawyer at 18?

[stefan segal]

If it was a law...you'd have one. Listen to these Iraqi veterans...no 18 year old wants to be mentally or physically crippled for their next 60 years.
There was a forced draft lottery when I turned 18...so I didn't have much choice...today, kids don't have as much options for advancement...king of burger king...or maybe some education from the military...if they bring enough home after their tour.

Some people make the choice...and who is to say up front that it isn't intelligent? Only afterward, if they don't have their whole functioning body and are unfit for most careers, could anyone say for sure...I opt for the "don't kill anyone and have all your parts each morning when you wake up"...there are other ways to get ahead...if you kive long enough to learn they exist.
Thanks for the info Kres.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

If it was a law...you'd have one. Listen to these Iraqi veterans...no 18 year old wants to be mentally or physically crippled for their next 60 years.
There was a forced draft lottery when I turned 18...so I didn't have much choice...today, kids don't have as much options for advancement...king of burger king...or maybe some education from the military...if they bring enough home after their tour.

Some people make the choice...and who is to say up front that it isn't intelligent? Only afterward, if they don't have their whole functioning body and are unfit for most careers, could anyone say for sure...I opt for the "don't kill anyone and have all your parts each morning when you wake up"...there are other ways to get ahead...if you kive long enough to learn they exist.
Thanks for the info Kres.

Stefan


This kind of pussy talk is what will be the end of this country. You will learn this if you live another 20-30 years.

You reap what you sow. This idea of passing the buck on blame for our own choices is what has begun the beginning of the end of the USA as we know it.



I signed up at 18. I realized what I had gotten myself into and honored my commitment, albeit sometimes with a bit of an attitude. My time in the military was hardly complimentary either, but I served the time I signed up for and got out. It's as simple as that. My choices, my consequences.

[tylerdurden119]

This kind of pussy talk is what will be the end of this country. You will learn this if you live another 20-30 years.

You reap what you sow. This idea of passing the buck on blame for our own choices is what has begun the beginning of the end of the USA as we know it.



I signed up at 18. I realized what I had gotten myself into and honored my commitment, albeit sometimes with a bit of an attitude. My time in the military was hardly complimentary either, but I served the time I signed up for and got out. It's as simple as that. My choices, my consequences.


Amen, brother! While all the "first year of college hippies" are running around bitching and being idealistic....some of us have to do the dirty work of this country. So I say, let em' keep it up! They have no stake in it....keep reaping the benefits of my country, keep going to college, working and driving your SUV's while bitching about "blood for oil" HA HA HA HA HA Keep it up you spoiled brats! Hooooyaahhh!

[stefan segal]

This kind of pussy talk is what will be the end of this country. You will learn this if you live another 20-30 years.

You reap what you sow. This idea of passing the buck on blame for our own choices is what has begun the beginning of the end of the USA as we know it.



I signed up at 18. I realized what I had gotten myself into and honored my commitment, albeit sometimes with a bit of an attitude. My time in the military was hardly complimentary either, but I served the time I signed up for and got out. It's as simple as that. My choices, my consequences.

Kres...Maiming kids before they're experienced enough to make reasoning choices is criminal...as criminal as attacking sovereign nations and stealing their natural resources.

What you call "pussy talk", is lame means to avoid the facts on the ground. It is obvious that some of our population enjoy or prefer soldiering to working in busnsess...and the number of paid (blackwater) mercinaries proves that fact...and there are also a number of youngsters who believe thier volunteering for "our" armed forces is engaging in a patriotic endeavor...other than the actual killing and destroying for the corporate cadre's enriched profits abroad, but those whose quality of life and options for competing in that life are destroyed before they have reached 20 years old...is a criminal enterprize encouraged by our government.

Kres...do you actually believe that 20 or 30 years hence will suddenly come up differently than it is today...in terms of conflict? Mankind has always fought...they will continue to fight due to attitudes such as what you have stated here...this is the very seeds of the crime of killing and maiming our best hope for a changed future that might look beter than that of these days.

This butch administration is fast-tracking our economy and country into it's demise. 08 could possibly slow the process, but the whole of the government need a rebooting in terms of justice and the Constitution...both of which events I don't believe will occur in time or to a proper degree to keep us the US from the flameout, crash and burn we bought for ourselves.

Your casual preditory attitude in feeding our children into killing and being killed is offensive...although not unusual given our government designed education.

That you are insensitive to your own enthusiasm for eating your young...is more or less commn as a head-cold...but nothing a mature mentality would publically identify themselves.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...Maiming kids before they're experienced enough to make reasoning choices is criminal...as criminal as attacking sovereign nations and stealing their natural resources.

What you call "pussy talk", is lame means to avoid the facts on the ground. It is obvious that some of our population enjoy or prefer soldiering to working in busnsess...and the number of paid (blackwater) mercinaries proves that fact...and there are also a number of youngsters who believe thier volunteering for "our" armed forces is engaging in a patriotic endeavor...other than the actual killing and destroying for the corporate cadre's enriched profits abroad, but those whose quality of life and options for competing in that life are destroyed before they have reached 20 years old...is a criminal enterprize encouraged by our government.

Kres...do you actually believe that 20 or 30 years hence will suddenly come up differently than it is today...in terms of conflict? Mankind has always fought...they will continue to fight due to attitudes such as what you have stated here...this is the very seeds of the crime of killing and maiming our best hope for a changed future that might look beter than that of these days.

This butch administration is fast-tracking our economy and country into it's demise. 08 could possibly slow the process, but the whole of the government need a rebooting in terms of justice and the Constitution...both of which events I don't believe will occur in time or to a proper degree to keep us the US from the flameout, crash and burn we bought for ourselves.

Your casual preditory attitude in feeding our children into killing and being killed is offensive...although not unusual given our government designed education.

That you are insensitive to your own enthusiasm for eating your young...is more or less commn as a head-cold...but nothing a mature mentality would publically identify themselves.

Stefan


LMAO @ "facts"

18 year olds shouldn't sign up for the military is hardly a fact

Also I LMAO @ making this another excuse to blast Bush


I was not governmetn educated by the way. Government education teaches kids to be pussies like yourself. This isn't even debatable.

Again mentalities like yours will be the end of the country. If you are cool with it, then more power to you and your beliefs.


On the constitution, most Americans, including yourself, do not want a constitutional government.




This was a really funny psot by you. Really have a hard time believing you are either this stupid or this delusional.

[stefan segal]

Kres...you make rash and unsupported statements...it would be much more functional to debate if you could supply more than your opinion...say to support your statement "most people wouldn't want a Constitutional government."

As far as this comment on the Constitution goes...it makes no rational sense at all. I most certainly wish to, and can demand, to live under the our Constitutional government...as do Americans and much of the rest of the world.

Government directed education teaches government approved history, while giving all the actors in it their motivations. It is slanted toward citizens...US citizens, being something special as killers and warmongers..."we don't like war, but when we get to it...we're Hell on wheels"...some of it is good enough, most of the idea is to keep a population cohesive, and some of it is to prepare cannon fodder.

Except for the sciences, the rest is all one government's opinion...but in most cases of opinion, they supply back up copy.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...you make rash and unsupported statements...it would be much more functional to debate if you could supply more than your opinion...say to support your statement "most people wouldn't want a Constitutional government."

As far as this comment on the Constitution goes...it makes no rational sense at all. I most certainly wish to, and can demand, to live under the our Constitutional government...as do Americans and much of the rest of the world.

Government directed education teaches government approved history, while giving all the actors in it their motivations. It is slanted toward citizens...US citizens, being something special as killers and warmongers..."we don't like war, but when we get to it...we're Hell on wheels"...some of it is good enough, most of the idea is to keep a population cohesive, and some of it is to prepare cannon fodder.

Except for the sciences, the rest is all one government's opinion...but in most cases of opinion, they supply back up copy.

Stefan


Most all of our federal governmetn programs are unconstitutional. Social security, welfare, money for the arts, I could go one forever. It's all unconstitutional. These powers via the 10th amendment are supposed to be left up to the states, they are not. We do not follow the Constitution in Washington, nor do the people want us to. People want comfort and safety, not the limited federal constitutional government we are supposed to have.

[stefan segal]

Kres...You seem to have strange notion of how our Constitution works.

Surely you are aware of our Senate and and Congress...well they debate and vote on those programs you've mentioned and deemed unconstitutional, nad if voted favorablely, they pass it onto the president who then signs it into law or veto's it.

There is another aspect of this process that such laws can be challenged on their Constitutionality...upon which case the Supreme Court judges the legality of the measure and yeas or neas it's constitutionality.

The biggest problem with this present administration is it's continual attempts to circumvent our Constitution. These efforts of deviating from and misinterpretiting the Constitution, is one of the prime concerns of those who wish to repair the damage to our nation by butch & company.

You really should investigate this country of ours...learn it's political history and all the heros and bad actors our system of government has not only lived through, but absorbed and recovered from. What I am attempting to point out is the miraculous self-righting power inherant in our government...it is something we as citizens can be most proud...as it is singular in all the world.
( conceptually borrowed from the Iriquoi Nation and modified to fit Western civilization)

I believe you have confused the fact we live in a republic rather than a true democracy...which in ealier times would be physically impossible...but now, we could vote as a pupulace in democratic fashion with a vote-button on our TV...but I agree with you in that we wouldn't have the time to consider each new law and circumstances discussed, and thus would prefer to have those elected to pay attention for us.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

Kres...You seem to have strange notion of how our Constitution works.

Surely you are aware of our Senate and and Congress...well they debate and vote on those programs you've mentioned and deemed unconstitutional, nad if voted favorablely, they pass it onto the president who then signs it into law or veto's it.

There is another aspect of this process that such laws can be challenged on their Constitutionality...upon which case the Supreme Court judges the legality of the measure and yeas or neas it's constitutionality.

The biggest problem with this present administration is it's continual attempts to circumvent our Constitution. These efforts of deviating from and misinterpretiting the Constitution, is one of the prime concerns of those who wish to repair the damage to our nation by butch & company.

You really should investigate this country of ours...learn it's political history and all the heros and bad actors our system of government has not only lived through, but absorbed and recovered from. What I am attempting to point out is the miraculous self-righting power inherant in our government...it is something we as citizens can be most proud...as it is singular in all the world.
( conceptually borrowed from the Iriquoi Nation and modified to fit Western civilization)

I believe you have confused the fact we live in a republic rather than a true democracy...which in ealier times would be physically impossible...but now, we could vote as a pupulace in democratic fashion with a vote-button on our TV...but I agree with you in that we wouldn't have the time to consider each new law and circumstances discussed, and thus would prefer to have those elected to pay attention for us.

Stefan



So if you agree with a law, it's democracy at work, if you disagree with it, it's unconstitutional.

Please explain to me how Social Security is constitutional.

[stefan segal]

If you are aware of your history, FDR instituted SS to the agreement of those who wished to live by it.

Democracy has to do with equal representation of one's beliefs (including a list of laws already passed) irrespective of their standing other than citizenship.

Once heard and reviewed, those representatives (republic) proceed to vote on it. If the majority OKs the measure, and it doesn't run counter to the sense and reasoning of those tenants of the Constitution and existing body of laws, then it becomes law upon execuitive signing.

kres...I don't see your charge of unconstitutional in this process. I have witnessed reprehensible and embarassing maneuvers to manipulate this democratic process...but overall, the ship continues to sail regardless.

I suspect you aren't republican so much as a libertarian...those of that stripe can't get past themselves to allow others their equal voice and rights.

Libertarians appear to me, to each demand their rights be satisfied irrespective of those others who will be effected...if this is also your underatanding of democracy, you should run for president...although I harbor grave doubts of your capacity to comprehend the world and this country, I don't believe even you could be much worse than butch...and everyone will listen to you..might think you are stupid, but will still listen...The libertarian's heaven on earth.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

If you are aware of your history, FDR instituted SS to the agreement of those who wished to live by it.

Democracy has to do with equal representation of one's beliefs (including a list of laws already passed) irrespective of their standing other than citizenship.

Once heard and reviewed, those representatives (republic) proceed to vote on it. If the majority OKs the measure, and it doesn't run counter to the sense and reasoning of those tenants of the Constitution and existing body of laws, then it becomes law upon execuitive signing.

kres...I don't see your charge of unconstitutional in this process. I have witnessed reprehensible and embarassing maneuvers to manipulate this democratic process...but overall, the ship continues to sail regardless.

I suspect you aren't republican so much as a libertarian...those of that stripe can't get past themselves to allow others their equal voice and rights.

Libertarians appear to me, to each demand their rights be satisfied irrespective of those others who will be effected...if this is also your underatanding of democracy, you should run for president...although I harbor grave doubts of your capacity to comprehend the world and this country, I don't believe even you could be much worse than butch...and everyone will listen to you..might think you are stupid, but will still listen...The libertarian's heaven on earth.

Stefan


Dude, you are possibly the the stupidest fuck I have ever met. Not because you disagree with me, but your complete inability to see how fucking stupid you truly are. Yes, this makes about as much sense as anything you say.


Debating with you is pointless, you are incapable of intelligent conversation. Please avoid responding to any of posts in the future. Not only do you miss the point entirely, you respond with irrelevant rhetoric or common knowledge. It's a waste of my time, and is lowering my IQ.

[stefan segal]

kres...sorry about your IQ...I realize you already are dangerously short of it.

One point of proof of that shortage is that you would dump on me so slanderously then demand that I don't respond. This qualifys you for the moron level.

I don't know your criteria for "rhetoric", but I have been asking you to back up your hysteric statements with some evidence...this you apparently refuse to do. you would rather slander me instead.

You say the word "debate" making some specious claim that we have previously induloged in such an act. This is specifically untrue...you have made a bunch of brash statements you refuse or are unable to support with any facts. If you had responded with such evidence, then that data could be debated...so far, that has not happened.

I though much more you of early on here when I supposed you were being purposely ignorant...a sort of comedian. I have since concluded I was mistaken, and that you were/are indeed serious and reporting your opinions as you believe them...this is hard for me to comprehend or to believe, when considering your degree of "me firstisms".

I wish you a very long life...you deserve every minute of it.

Stefan

[kres24GT]

kres...sorry about your IQ...I realize you already are dangerously short of it.

One point of proof of that shortage is that you would dump on me so slanderously then demand that I don't respond. This qualifys you for the moron level.

I don't know your criteria for "rhetoric", but I have been asking you to back up your hysteric statements with some evidence...this you apparently refuse to do. you would rather slander me instead.

You say the word "debate" making some specious claim that we have previously induloged in such an act. This is specifically untrue...you have made a bunch of brash statements you refuse or are unable to support with any facts. If you had responded with such evidence, then that data could be debated...so far, that has not happened.

I though much more you of early on here when I supposed you were being purposely ignorant...a sort of comedian. I have since concluded I was mistaken, and that you were/are indeed serious and reporting your opinions as you believe them...this is hard for me to comprehend or to believe, when considering your degree of "me firstisms".

I wish you a very long life...you deserve every minute of it.

Stefan


I am not asking you to agree with me, I am asking you stop being such a fucking moron. Please review this thread and tell me you haven't made a complete fool of yourself and made yourself look stupid. You can't.

First off you posted a link you didn't even read. Hell you didn't even read the part of the article you included int he post.

Secondly, you try and tell me 18 year olds shouldn't be able to sign contracts is a "fact."

Third, you start with the "unconstitutional" talk. When I bring up that many things are "unconstitutional" you give me s a 3rd grade lesson on how a bill becomes a law as if it is relevant.

Fourth, when called on your hypocrisy of what is and is not unconstitutional you respond with nonsense, never confronting the hypocrisy.


Again, I could care less if you agree with me. Few people, include my friends and fmaily, agree with my political views, doesn't mean we hate each other. However you are simply too stupid to even converse with as I pointed out. Maybe you aren't stupid, and just being purposefully dense out of blind politcis.


Either way it is not sensible or worthwhile to engage in a discussion with you. This thread is the epitome of why that is the case.

[stefan segal]

Kres...18 year olds, are minors, and can't sign a contract and be held legally responsible for their choice.

The law understands and responds to the fact and required a co-signataur, such as anyone, preferable a parent, over 21 who will financially stand behind the deal at hand.

But this same kid, at 18, can sign 8 or 10 years of thier life away...even in the face of parental confrontation to the act.

Is a contract involving money more important than a contract involving life and death? It make no reasoning sense...but 18 year olds are perfect for the fighting because they haven't lived long enough and have too much rampent juices to make choices of reason. The word of concept of "neat" looms large in their thinking. "It's 'neat' to have a gun with so much fire power."

The idea of shooting someone's father and husband, doesn't have the same drawing power as "neat"...if you are still a minor.

Stefan


To train these teens to murder on demand is in my view, more wrong than simply criminal.

I never mmentioned anything about 'agreement"...I spoke only of engendering debate through providing further suport for your personal rantings.

I envisioned, at best...that if we were to walk through your stated reasonings step by step...point by point, then even you might discover your in-house program which delivers up your conclusions is running with at least one flat tire and can really use an upgrade...but never anything like agreement with you...that's disgusting!

[Mr. Blue]

Maiming kids before they're experienced enough to make reasoning choices is criminal.

At some point adults, even if they're just 18, have to make choices and decisions for themselves and live by those decisions. Using what you just said, should we let an 18 year old that robbed a store, committed a crime, rape, murder, should we give them a free pass because they're not "experienced" enough to make reasoning choices? Of course not.

People start making choices about their life far younger than 18...they make those choices and have to live with those choices. We'd do better as a society by not coddling people so damn much and let them take ownership of their decisions.

So, yes, 18 might be young, but still an adult.

As for the original topic...I happen to be a free speech nut. However, there's only two places that I pretty much admit that free speech has to take a back seat:

1. The military because there'd be complete disarray if you allowed free speech to get in the way of military cohesiveness.

2. Schools (what??? lol) - well, when I was going to school I had this really strict teacher...a student made a wise ass comment about free speech, democracy, blah blah blah, and he was just doing this to disrupt the class. The teacher just smiled and said, "school is a dictatorship, now shut up and sit down" LOL, today that teacher would probably be attacked for saying something like that, but he was a great teacher and was one of my best classes growing up.

[stefan segal]

[QUOTE=Mr. Blue]At some point adults, even if they're just 18, have to make choices and decisions for themselves and live by those decisions. Using what you just said, should we let an 18 year old that robbed a store, committed a crime, rape, murder, should we give them a free pass because they're not "experienced" enough to make reasoning choices? Of course not.

People start making choices about their life far younger than 18...they make those choices and have to live with those choices. We'd do better as a society by not coddling people so damn much and let them take ownership of their decisions.

Blue...I am ALL for choices...without choice there can be no mind. (referring only in terms of that choice...not your teacher's situation which does not apply)

The elements of character making the choice made to steal a stray pencil are not of the same composition as those who pick up a gun to rob a grocery store...I don't think there could be a debate on this.

I believe we all make our choices risking the attendant lessons that go with with each effect we cause. In other words, the person taking the pencil does not expect to be shot...as an effect of his act.

It is in this area of consideration I object to using those too inexperienced to know ( they most likely "know" from movies etc.), or more correctly...understand what effects they place themselves subject, in terms of mental and physical damage they will bring to all the years of their future life.

These kids just don't have the scope or the control of their hormones to make such a choice at such an early stage in their lives. At this point in their growth, they are all more than ready for an adventure and all are convinced they will live forever...not to mention those patriotic scholarly types who feel the need of their country, but learn of the horror they bring to non combatant people in their own homes...and from being taught to kill, seeing their own efforts in stark display, are themselves stunted for life.

I am against war...it is a hideous activity for adults to choose for settling their disputes. That they should kill, maim and mentally fuck up our kids...our best promis for our future, is criminal.

I am not so blind as to overlook the fact that these same kids are best in the hearts and mind of the warhalks for charging that machine gun...they have the most energy and are ready to try anything...especially if given some nifty weaponry. (I am not overlooking these men's professionalism...I am referring only to that in their own mind when signing up...making that unknowing choice)

I don't expect any official change in the administration's views on their killing of our kids...the best I can forsee is a change in attitude of those kids who might sign theiur life away before they have the experience to make such a choice.

Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

It is in this area of consideration I object to using those too inexperienced to know ( they most likely "know" from movies etc.), or more correctly...understand what effects they place themselves subject, in terms of mental and physical damage they will bring to all the years of their future life.

I agree with this to some extent, but not exactly for the same reasons. I'll try to explain.

We're becoming a society that wants all the decisions made for us instead of forcing the individual to make choices on their own and taking ownership of those choices.

Maybe you're right an 18 year old in 2007 is a little more child like, but not because of some genetic disposition...because we're now raising children to be immature, to avoid adulthood like the plague, and even when they enter adulthood they carry this excuse driven personality that will never take ownership of their own actions.

When you read through history text, you have people doing astonishing things at tender ages, ages that we'd consider now to be "immature". I do realize that time changes, but slowly you're seeing this erosion of personal responsibility.

Do you think an 18 year old today is as responsible as one in 1940? 1800? 1700? Of course they aren't because we're creating an immature society devoid of personal responsibility and choices.

Everyday we see this erosion of the individual making personal decisions and deferring choice to the government or corporations. One example, Kelloggs has decided to change all their cereals to be healthier, mainly because they were going to get sued by a health advocacy group because of fears of childhood obesity.

Now, I've eaten Frosted Flakes most of my life...I'm healthy, I workout 7 days a week, my body fat is really low, and now I can't have my Frosted Flakes once and awhile because some fucking advocacy group wants to parent for everyone.

Choices, decisions, living by those decisions, they're important to teach children at a young age...really young. I have no doubt that an 18 year old can be mature enough to make life choices. I started working when I was 12 when I hit 18 I worked full time and went to school. When the recruiters came around to our school I knew one thing for sure, there was no way in hell I was joining the military. My choice, my decision, yay for independent thought.

However, maybe you're right, an 18 year old of today might be too damn immature to make this kind of decision. I don't hold out much hope for America because we're creating useless individuals through incessant coddling.

[Linkster]

Blue - thats exactly why the Army has a new series of tv ads directed at the immature game players linking the role-playing battle games to doing it in real life - amazing that they play on that as if the whole thing is just a big video game where they have a bunch of lives and can build immortality rankings

[kres24GT]

Blue - thats exactly why the Army has a new series of tv ads directed at the immature game players linking the role-playing battle games to doing it in real life - amazing that they play on that as if the whole thing is just a big video game where they have a bunch of lives and can build immortality rankings

Anyone stupid enough to fall for these "ploys" and join the military for them, well, that's probably where they should be. They are going to be welfare monkeys in the real world.

[stefan segal]

Blue...the immaturity you refer to is part of it...we only respond to need...and if maturity is not required, then we play...as Linkster points out...but kres' attitude of gathering our youth up and writing-0ff thier lives and futures after making those lives a tool, "boots on the ground", tool to kill our own kind...as they too, are only numbers...but bad numbers.

I don't expect kres types to "get it" ...the inhumanity of patting kids on the back and smiling them off to possible ruin of thier bodies and minds, while doing things to people and property that if repeated here at home, would get them locked away for life in shame.

The unthinking/unfeeling types like kres, are the types who have the best chance of never having nightmares or loosing body parts, because its obviously stupid to walk point...and there are so many yahoos that will do it without question.

The services spend millions to court the best in us and use it to their purposes, which, if like these wars against asymetrical unmarked opponets in their streets (jungles) and homes, twists thier future lives forever.

What if our attention was focused not upon stealing poor country's oil, but upon helping them reorganize their societies into growth patterns that would raise the local ecconomies and levels of opportunities world-wide?

Sounds stupid for some...can't find the payoff dollars in it, but everyone would gain without all the murdering and mental devistation and loosing of limbs.

It only makes sense if one steps away from the shadow of corporate thinking.

The world needs mega corporations for the complex and exotic items we enjoy today, but items like food and clothing is not of that list, as are so many other items we use.

The corporate takeover of all our physical requirements, has allowed us to remain untried and immature until late in our lives. The corporate takeover has stolen our futures from early on...bubble wrapped it and sells it to us.

What jobs remain for those who don't or can't begin life with school loans...only the most basic functions having to do with interacting with hundreds of dollar exchanges a day.

This is a life to fight against..to rebel from...there is no growth or pride available in it's performance.

The corporate structure needs to be legally restructured and thus limited to those areas not available to neighborhood production.

What is the function of a country? Is it to supply the biggest and baddest attack force protecting corporations who punish the earth and peoples in it just by servicing thier feeding schedules?

I don't believe this is so. I believe people join and protect thier children and homes, but want to grow and experience life. This corporate thinking of the leaders of "our" country don't feel the press of thier constitutients to consider this main point.

Corporations operate on our personal dollars...if we withhold those dollars, thier overhead eats them alive...we DO have that power if we simply awake to it.

Stefan

[Mr. Blue]

Blue - thats exactly why the Army has a new series of tv ads directed at the immature game players linking the role-playing battle games to doing it in real life - amazing that they play on that as if the whole thing is just a big video game where they have a bunch of lives and can build immortality rankings

Linkster, when I see those commercials I think...holy hell we've gone nuts as a society. The Army did put out a rather good video game...wildly popular, probably still is popular, and it's main goal was to train, glamorize, and give a taste of what military life was.

Now, I used to play video games, and I enjoyed them, but I think people from my generation still keeps video games in the proper context of it being a game. The young though...I'm not so sure anymore. They're addicted, the play around the clock, you wonder what happened to having a social life? What happened to responsibility? What happened to the parents? Why do they let their kids play video games every waking hour?

My neighbor has a pretty good kid and when he saw me playing the guitar outside he really wanted to learn. So I bought a cheapy second hand guitar, restored it, and gave it to him...great, he's now playing he's getting good...So I thought I'd pay him a small amount to do some yard work. Fine, he was completely incompetent. He didn't know how to tie a knot. Didn't know how to mow a lawn. I handed him a rake and he asked me what he should do with it. I handed him a pocket knife and he wasn't sure how to open it. He was completely out of shape and couldn't do much work without getting ready to collapse like an old person :disbelief:

Now this is a good kid, respectful to his elders, never got into any trouble. If a good kid is so incompetent...what must a bad kid be like? It's just scary to me the generation we're raising now.

[Mr. Blue]

I don't expect kres types to "get it"

Well, I think you're a little too hard on kres. I seriously doubt he's a callous cold hearted person, and I think his point is more that 18 years olds should be old enough to make these types of decisions. Part of me agrees with that. I also agree that soldiers do have to sign away certain freedoms to protect those freedoms. I know it's an odd concept, but you can't really have a debate club while you're doing a military action.

I think if there were a draft again there would be valid points regarding freedoms, citizenship, etc. The individual has no choice in that matter and then I think there's avenues for complaint, lol. However, if someone willing signs up, even if they are young they have to live with their choice.

The problem as I see it isn't the military. It's our leaders. Bush owns this war...he was a mistake from day 1. Our congress also owns this war...no matter how much they want to push it just on bush, they have responsibility...when you hear candidates for the Presidency saying they didn't read a 90 page intelligence report before they voted to go to war...well, what the fuck is that about?

The citizens own this war because we allow our leaders to betray us, betray what we want, and repeatedly allow this to happen.

The military, their rules, who they recruit, etc, etc, etc. It's the same all over the world, you're not going to see much variation in what's done from military to military...it is what it is. That's why we have to pick our leaders so damn carefully. It kind of reminds me of the NRA motto of, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"....well, the motto for the military should run something like, "The military doesn't kill people, our leaders do."

[stefan segal]

[QUOTE=Mr. Blue]Well, I think you're a little too hard on kres. I seriously doubt he's a callous cold hearted person, and I think his point is more that 18 years olds should be old enough to make these types of decisions. Part of me agrees with that. I also agree that soldiers do have to sign away certain freedoms to protect those freedoms. I know it's an odd concept, but you can't really have a debate club while you're doing a military action.QUOTE]

Blue...everyone draws thier own lines, mine is well before kres's write-off of the troups in harm's way as being "welfare monkies", as as such of no matter.

The article under discussion is not "men in action", but men who have done thier active fighting and have something to report they feel is important enough to say incurring conflict with the powers that be...military or political...if there is a difference.

Those ignorant kids who enlisted and now have fought and killed, are not the same...now they know directly...they are no longer ignorant.

The question is: 'How much weight should a contract entered by a teenager now control the actions of man...especially a man who feels the truth was withheld from them at the time of thier signing.

I understand securiety...I had a top secret clearance and understand the neccessity of adherring to it...but boots on the street talking political judgements ( not sharing of technologies) but bringing into question disinformation to those who will pay for this war...I don't believe this warrents the same set of laws that prevent the passing of classified data.

One set is to keep our technologies from possible foreign combatants...the other is to hide from US citizens the actual evidence of failure or premeditated crimes by powerbrokers in suits and ties.

This situation stinks and should be brought into open debate so we will stop using kids to carry out acts that more matured men would handle with less killing and mayhem. I'm not ignorant of the mercenary types who choose to pursue combat while they are able to do so...but they shouldn't be the icon for bringing teenagers into doing our dirty work...and those who do find out there is nothing but pain, dirt and suffering to their lives, shouldn't be kept from warning other kids away from joining.

Stefan