Dr. Adrian Rogers Quote

[Citizen]

"What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the end of any nation."

And just for the record and FWIW, I've been a libertarian since the early 90s. I refuse to vote Rep or Dem. Its all about individual property rights (your gross wages, your boss's gross wage, his boss's gross wage, your company's gross earnings, your wife's/husband's/son's/daughter's gross wage) and what you can or can not choose do with it instead of some bureaucrat. Why is everyone's solution to a social problem government intervention?

I'm against wars in general and foreign intervention (outside of importing, exports, etc.). Bush was a fool to invade Iraq putting it nicely. Any loss of life is unacceptable. But the fact of the matter is wars end, social programs do not. To quote Dr. Friedman, "There is nothing more permanent than a temporary government program."

If I have to I will acknowledge the (what should be mostly limited) roles government should partake in. There can be a greater good for the masses. I can't imagine in this day and age anything my government can do better than protecting my/your individual property rights with this immense expansion of the federal government.

[Bill Cosby]

So you & hog are the local libertarians........... lol

this will be interesting...

[Hog Trash]

Here Here!.....Applause!.....Standing ovation!

Great post, Citizen!.....Welcome to DCJ! :thumbsup:

[Thai Kimchi]

So you & hog are the local libertarians........... lol

this will be interesting...


You got it, Bill. Here we go.

For all those not familiar with this Looneytarian breed of wingnuttery, my friend over at rack jite did the footwork:


The Libertarian Party

To understand what a Libertarian is, fill the mold with the intellectual racism of Charles Murray, the political extremism of Ron Paul, and the nature of Timothy McVeigh.

Many are confused over the word libertarian. It is really quite simple. The word without capitalization can be associated with the Eighteenth Century libertine philosophy or with the present civil libertarian associated with the ACLU, but once you capitalize it, it refers to the Libertarian Party and becomes an entirely different animal.

Watching their conventions on C-SPAN over the years, the visual experience caused me to wonder if perhaps they had a unspoken rule that every delegate must look like they own a Harley and bring at least one computer nerd along. It’s a pretty simple matter, basically it’s about caring for nothing at all, whatsoever, about anything but your money, your guns and your absolute inborn right to your money and your guns. They have not one lick of concern about society or anyone in it, proved conclusively by their incessant screaming not about fewer taxes but no taxes, not about decriminalization of some drugs but legalization of all drugs, and not about less gun control, but no gun controls.

No personal income tax whatsoever is at the top of their party platform. My speech on this issue is real short: If you don’t want to pay taxes pack your bags pal. Take a fantasy ride to the only place without taxes, Thunderdome.

Second on their platform is the full legalization of all drugs including heroin, cocaine, crack and crank. The numbers of people who would fall into this snow heap would overwhelm every city in this country to an extent never before experienced. Within months there would be literally millions of kids and screwed up nitwits perceiving existence only as where and when their next line, puff or injection was coming from. Tens of millions more would be buying and trying cocaine within weeks; the hopeless lower class, the bored middle class, college students, the sometime partiers and horny dudes using it to get laid, adding a 10% addiction/dependency rate to the millions of afore mentioned kids and nitwits. This would be the beginning of what the Libertarians are after, the destruction of society and overthrow of the United States Government by handgun and assault rifle.

Third on the Libertarian platform is an intense overwhelming gungoonery that makes the NRA look tame. They are Timothy McVeigh.

The leader of the Libertarian Party in the late 80’s and who was instrumental in making it America’s Third Party (also their Presidential candidate at the time) was Ron Paul, a Right-wing Republican congressman from Freeport, Texas and an unyielding Pro-Lifer. In the Spring of 88’ when Pat Robertson lost the Michigan primary and was knocked out of the presidential run, an estimated 200,000 Fundamentalist Robertson followers joined the Libertarian Party ranks.

The biggest floor fights in their conventions have been over abortion, for twenty years it was left blank to keep the party from splitting, but now by a single digit margin they voted to include a pro-Choice statement. Watching this particular fight I finally came to understand. Liberty is not what drives the Libertarian mentality, but rather the base selfishness of Social Darwinism. After all, besides the death penalty and physical incarceration, there could be no greater government intrusion than forcing women to have children they do not want.

Also keep in mind that their defense of such heroic Americans as David Koresh (an insane cop-killing rapist, child molester and arms dealer who said he was God), and Randy Weaver (a cop-killing arms dealer aligned with the Aryan Nations). The attraction to Weaver is not only the guns, but be sure to understand that the Libertarian Party is no friend of the Civil Rights movement.

Take your standard Right-wing lunatic, remove the issues of sex and religion, add a double dose of selfish callous disregard, stir in a gun waving madness putting even the NRA to shame, mix in a seething hatred of the Federal government, toss in a few ship containers of legalized crack and crank and you got Looneytarians.

[Citizen]

Sorry I'm not reading that. You can ask why if you'd like.

[Hog Trash]

Sorry I'm not reading that. You can ask why if you'd like.I read it and you didn't miss anything...The republicans and democrats usually have their different issues they concentrate on but TK seemed to cover them all indescrimanately.

It is filled with the same tired old misconceptions, half-truths, scare tactics and rhetoric that the demopublicans and mainstream press spouts every time they interview a Libertarian.

[Citizen]

I didn't read beyond the first couple of sentences. Any article that starts with so many biased/loaded terms is bound to be predicated on straw man arguments, fact twisting, and superficial analysis. Not worth my time. Garbage.

[Thai Kimchi]

Well, forget the propaganda angle. Check out their platform on their own site.......

http://www.lp.org/platform

They clearly state they favor legalizing drugs, all of them.

They also say the gub'mint shouldn't regulate commerce in any way. Yeah, that's a great idea. Have they been vacationing in the Bahamas since around 2006? What, they didn't happen to notice the only reason we didn't have a total financial meltdown last year was because Paulson drove a truckload of taxpayer cash (iou's) up to the back dock BECAUSE of poor gub'mint regulation?

It's like they're freakin' retarded. Strange.

[Citizen]

Well, forget the propaganda angle. Check out their platform on their own site.......

http://www.lp.org/platform

They clearly state they favor legalizing drugs, all of them.

And what's wrong with that? How does someone doing drugs on their own property hinder on my individual rights? Alcohol isn't a drug? Nicotine isn't a drug? And to a lesser extent caffeine? I'm all for non-violent decriminalization of drugs. Would cut down on prison expenses too.

They also say the gub'mint shouldn't regulate commerce in any way. Yeah, that's a great idea. Have they been vacationing in the Bahamas since around 2006? What, they didn't happen to notice the only reason we didn't have a total financial meltdown last year was because Paulson drove a truckload of taxpayer cash (iou's) up to the back dock BECAUSE of poor gub'mint regulation?

It's like they're freakin' retarded. Strange.

No. The federal reserve should be audited. Period. Its a disgrace! Yes it sounds crazy but of course as you know the devil's in the details or lack thereof.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/campaigns/auditthefed.php

Sign the petition!

n0NYBTkE1yQ

[Thai Kimchi]

Sorry, I can't get behind the legalization of all drugs. You mention alcohol - which I totally agree is a nasty drug and does a lot of damage. Looking back at history seems mankind NEEDS his alcohol. Hell, some say civilization took root when someone figured out how to make a primitive beer, and they all got together to pull as a team - increased output. Makes sense. But we can't open the gates to meth, heroin, crack, X, and all the rest. I think they should legalize pot and that's it.

Not sure about how important that fed reserve audit is - we don't necessarily want to scare everyone into a run on the bank.

[Citizen]

Sorry, I can't get behind the legalization of all drugs. You mention alcohol - which I totally agree is a nasty drug and does a lot of damage. Looking back at history seems mankind NEEDS his alcohol. Hell, some say civilization took root when someone figured out how to make a primitive beer, and they all got together to pull as a team - increased output. Makes sense. But we can't open the gates to meth, heroin, crack, X, and all the rest. I think they should legalize pot and that's it.

Not sure about how important that fed reserve audit is - we don't necessarily want to scare everyone into a run on the bank.

Hows the war on drugs going? Was there any lessons learned from prohibition? You know mankind needs alcohol based on what facts? How do you know what mankind needs or doesn't need for that matter? Do you look at facts or persuaded by emotional judgements? Should the government regulate fatty foods then? Sugary drinks? Candy? Meat? At what point do you draw the line? What makes you think your morality is for the benefit of the individual? Is it worth for the individual to have their property rights stripped away from them so it'll stop them from doing it? Does mental health count for anything? Doesn't underground black markets (a market where all commerce is conducted without regard to taxation, law or regulations of trade) exist as a result of criminalization?

Just take this FWIW but just figure out or even just guess how many laws are passed compared to how many are repealed by the government. How much watchdog is enough? Who's watching the watchdogs?...

[Thai Kimchi]

I've heard all that before, citizen. I don't approve of the way our 'drug war' is being waged, and realize this is a huge challenge for American society. Maybe if our civilization was as advanced as The Netherlands we could adjust to free-market heroin, meth, crack, X, PCP, LSD, and a few dozen others. But from what I've seen traveling across the fruited plain, we're not even close to Holland's stage of development. We're like Neanderthals compared to Cro Magnons.

[Citizen]

I've heard all that before, citizen. I don't approve of the way our 'drug war' is being waged, and realize this is a huge challenge for American society. Maybe if our civilization was as advanced as The Netherlands we could adjust to free-market heroin, meth, crack, X, PCP, LSD, and a few dozen others. But from what I've seen traveling across the fruited plain, we're not even close to Holland's stage of development. We're like Neanderthals compared to Cro Magnons.

I hate comparing how social policies "work" or "don't work" in other nations. In all those cases there is one constant, lots of government presence or total government absence. If universal health care works so well in other nations like Taiwan, how do you know their individual citizens don't pay a huge price for their "peace of mind". My interpretation of a government program "working" as - being a viable entity for the stability and growth of the economy. Gotta keep that in mind. Are you just flipping the bill for non-entities? Or is it going more towards proven investments? Comparing 1 social program between 2 countries is tunnel vision. "Oh look they don't have this one law and that's why their country is terrible."

[Thai Kimchi]

Here's the deal, citizen.......let's cut to the chase. Instead of endless point/counterpoint about whatever government wherever, let it be known I don't hate/fear/distrust government, you do.

I realize government is nothing more than the instrument people create to make life livable - without it we're in total chaos. Being opposed to government is like a human body being at war with it's own brain - makes no sense. If the 'instrument' isn't working properly, you fix it, not toss it away and do without.

Looneytarians and most conservatives view government as some force from outer space. It's an alien force trying to subjugate mankind, and must be fought tooth and nail at all times. KILL THE BEAST!

That crap is soooo tired.

"Republicans [include Libertarians] are the party that says government doesn't work, then get elected and prove it." - PJ O'Rourke

[Citizen]

Any time you want to have a civil conversation about this you are more than welcomed to.

[Hog Trash]

Here's the deal, citizen.......let's cut to the chase. Instead of endless point/counterpoint about whatever government wherever, let it be known I don't hate/fear/distrust government, you do.

I realize government is nothing more than the instrument people create to make life livable - without it we're in total chaos. Being opposed to government is like a human body being at war with it's own brain - makes no sense. If the 'instrument' isn't working properly, you fix it, not toss it away and do without.

Looneytarians and most conservatives view government as some force from outer space. It's an alien force trying to subjugate mankind, and must be fought tooth and nail at all times. KILL THE BEAST!

That crap is soooo tired.

"Republicans [include Libertarians] are the party that says government doesn't work, then get elected and prove it." - PJ O'RourkeSince the implementation of government first began there has been and still are people all over the world who would disagree with you my friend.

Governments have been the most evil of all of human kinds conceptions...They have enslaved, oppressed, and murdered millions of people worldwide.

Nothing comes close to the pain, suffering and destruction that a government that has grown to powerful can bring about...You need some history lessons TK.

[Bill Cosby]

You got it, Bill. Here we go.

For all those not familiar with this Looneytarian breed of wingnuttery, my friend over at rack jite did the footwork:


The Libertarian Party

To understand what a Libertarian is, fill the mold with the intellectual racism of Charles Murray, the political extremism of Ron Paul, and the nature of Timothy McVeigh.

Many are confused over the word libertarian. It is really quite simple. The word without capitalization can be associated with the Eighteenth Century libertine philosophy or with the present civil libertarian associated with the ACLU, but once you capitalize it, it refers to the Libertarian Party and becomes an entirely different animal.

Watching their conventions on C-SPAN over the years, the visual experience caused me to wonder if perhaps they had a unspoken rule that every delegate must look like they own a Harley and bring at least one computer nerd along. It’s a pretty simple matter, basically it’s about caring for nothing at all, whatsoever, about anything but your money, your guns and your absolute inborn right to your money and your guns. They have not one lick of concern about society or anyone in it, proved conclusively by their incessant screaming not about fewer taxes but no taxes, not about decriminalization of some drugs but legalization of all drugs, and not about less gun control, but no gun controls.

No personal income tax whatsoever is at the top of their party platform. My speech on this issue is real short: If you don’t want to pay taxes pack your bags pal. Take a fantasy ride to the only place without taxes, Thunderdome.

Second on their platform is the full legalization of all drugs including heroin, cocaine, crack and crank. The numbers of people who would fall into this snow heap would overwhelm every city in this country to an extent never before experienced. Within months there would be literally millions of kids and screwed up nitwits perceiving existence only as where and when their next line, puff or injection was coming from. Tens of millions more would be buying and trying cocaine within weeks; the hopeless lower class, the bored middle class, college students, the sometime partiers and horny dudes using it to get laid, adding a 10% addiction/dependency rate to the millions of afore mentioned kids and nitwits. This would be the beginning of what the Libertarians are after, the destruction of society and overthrow of the United States Government by handgun and assault rifle.

Third on the Libertarian platform is an intense overwhelming gungoonery that makes the NRA look tame. They are Timothy McVeigh.

The leader of the Libertarian Party in the late 80’s and who was instrumental in making it America’s Third Party (also their Presidential candidate at the time) was Ron Paul, a Right-wing Republican congressman from Freeport, Texas and an unyielding Pro-Lifer. In the Spring of 88’ when Pat Robertson lost the Michigan primary and was knocked out of the presidential run, an estimated 200,000 Fundamentalist Robertson followers joined the Libertarian Party ranks.

The biggest floor fights in their conventions have been over abortion, for twenty years it was left blank to keep the party from splitting, but now by a single digit margin they voted to include a pro-Choice statement. Watching this particular fight I finally came to understand. Liberty is not what drives the Libertarian mentality, but rather the base selfishness of Social Darwinism. After all, besides the death penalty and physical incarceration, there could be no greater government intrusion than forcing women to have children they do not want.

Also keep in mind that their defense of such heroic Americans as David Koresh (an insane cop-killing rapist, child molester and arms dealer who said he was God), and Randy Weaver (a cop-killing arms dealer aligned with the Aryan Nations). The attraction to Weaver is not only the guns, but be sure to understand that the Libertarian Party is no friend of the Civil Rights movement.

Take your standard Right-wing lunatic, remove the issues of sex and religion, add a double dose of selfish callous disregard, stir in a gun waving madness putting even the NRA to shame, mix in a seething hatred of the Federal government, toss in a few ship containers of legalized crack and crank and you got Looneytarians.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Interesting...........

Nice read.. To bad not everyone read it........... Hubris was not mentioned once...

[Bill Cosby]

Here's the deal, citizen.......let's cut to the chase. Instead of endless point/counterpoint about whatever government wherever, let it be known I don't hate/fear/distrust government, you do.


Fear does seem to be a strong factor.....

GUment just can't do right....

But when the trailer catches fire you don't here them bitching about "Keep the damn government out my life", they calling 911...... :lmao2:

[Citizen]

Sorry, nonsense must be pointed out.

[xav8terx]

Sorry, nonsense must be pointed out.


What about the post above yours was nonsense? You dont want government, you dont want taxes...but you will use those resources when ever it works for you? Do you pave your own path to work?

[Citizen]

What about the post above yours was nonsense? You dont want government, you dont want taxes...but you will use those resources when ever it works for you? Do you pave your own path to work?


When did I say that or how is that Libertarian? What you are describing in anarchism. And read the part about what I posted "lots of government presence or total government absence" Yes, I'm against government absence.

[Thai Kimchi]

What about the post above yours was nonsense? You dont want government, you dont want taxes...but you will use those resources when ever it works for you? Do you pave your own path to work?


Exactly. Have you noticed Libertarians waltz around like poor imitations of Thomas Paine on meth, extolling the Constitution every step of the way - while forgetting the document was written for 18th Century society and has been necessarily amended over and over.

"If it ain't in the Constitution, pal, it ain't legal" being their favorite mantra. Meanwhile, space shots to the moon weren't in the Constitution either, nor were invading foreign lands that pose no threat, and garrisoning troops around the world for no apparent reason.

Basically, Libertarians care about ONLY one thing, Libertarians. "Keep your hands off MY money" is their unofficial motto. They're like a stingy little kids obsessed with guns.

[xav8terx]

When did I say that or how is that Libertarian? What you are describing in anarchism. And read the part about what I posted "lots of government presence or total government absence" Yes, I'm against government absence.



Which of the many, many flavors of Libertarian are you? I mean, there are so many variations of it, no wonder those that embrace it are so fuckin confused.

Anarchism, an anti-state philosophy for which the term "libertarianism" is often used synonymously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_(disambiguation)

[Citizen]

Which of the many, many flavors of Libertarian are you? I mean, there are so many variations of it, no wonder those that embrace it are so fuckin confused.

Anarchism, an anti-state philosophy for which the term "libertarianism" is often used synonymously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_(disambiguation)

wikipedia
Social liberalism supports heavier taxation and more state enterprises than other forms of liberalism. The term has variations around the world; North American self-described social liberals generally support some degree of free market, whereas many European self-described social liberals have background in socialism and even in communism.

Which of the many, many flavors of liberalism are you? I mean, there are so many variations of it, no wonder those that embrace it are so fuckin confused.

[Citizen]

Exactly. Have you noticed Libertarians waltz around like poor imitations of Thomas Paine on meth, extolling the Constitution every step of the way - while forgetting the document was written for 18th Century society and has been necessarily amended over and over.

"If it ain't in the Constitution, pal, it ain't legal" being their favorite mantra. Meanwhile, space shots to the moon weren't in the Constitution either, nor were invading foreign lands that pose no threat, and garrisoning troops around the world for no apparent reason.

Basically, Libertarians care about ONLY one thing, Libertarians. "Keep your hands off MY money" is their unofficial motto. They're like a stingy little kids obsessed with guns.

He should be able to speak for himself.

[Hog Trash]

He should be able to speak for himself.Liberalism and Libertarianism are at opposite ends of the political spectrum and will never agree on much of anything regarding political ideology.

A libertarian believes the individual is the better judge of how to spend the money they earn, providing for themselves and making their own personal decisions.

A liberal believes government is best equiped to spend the people's earnings, provide for their needs and make most of their decisions for them.

These two groups will never be able to come to an agreement or reach a common ground....There is none!

[xav8terx]

wikipedia


Which of the many, many flavors of liberalism are you? I mean, there are so many variations of it, no wonder those that embrace it are so fuckin confused.


I have no confusion on what I support. Taxes are here, have been here for a very long time, and will never go away...at least anytime in the near future. I would rather the money that the government does take from us get applied in a beneficial manner that help support the people of this country...all the people. There isn’t much I can do with a space shuttle, an F-22, or dead Iraqis. If that makes me a social liberal than so be it...what it doesn’t make me is an Anarchist only looking out for my own best interest... I wish I could only think of myself sometimes but it just isn’t me; but I like to think my mom raised me right so what do you do?

It has nothing to do, as the brain dead Hog Trash likes to sing; with the need for the government to tell me how to spend my money...they do that anyway. I don’t support more taxes, but if they are going to take it then at the very least do something good with it.

I’m not confused. I know without tax money we wouldn’t have the police, fire department, roads, education, and so many other programs that not only help the people but keep the infrastructure intact. I know without that we would have to pay even more to have a crime investigated, fires put out, and potholes and bridges repaired. I know that greedy people wont donate to charity, we need programs to help the poor get educated and a good start (yes there is abuse but where isn’t there?).

[MintJulep]

The govt taking money from people is not charity, it is extortion.

[Thai Kimchi]

He should be able to speak for himself.

So should you, but am I complaining about the American education system?

[Citizen]

I have no confusion on what I support.

I have no confusion either.

Taxes are here, have been here for a very long time, and will never go away...at least anytime in the near future.

I don't have a problem with that. I'm willing to pay my share but depends on what.

I would rather the money that the government does take from us get applied in a beneficial manner that help support the people of this country...all the people.

'Help'? Well isn't that nice and nebulous.

There isn’t much I can do with a space shuttle, an F-22, or dead Iraqis. If that makes me a social liberal than so be it...what it doesn’t make me is an Anarchist only looking out for my own best interest... I wish I could only think of myself sometimes but it just isn’t me; but I like to think my mom raised me right so what do you do?

I stated in my first post here I'm fighting for mine/your property rights (which I defined). Does that only sound like I'm looking out for my own interest? You shouldn't get to keep the money/property you acquire?

It has nothing to do, as the brain dead Hog Trash likes to sing; with the need for the government to tell me how to spend my money...they do that anyway. I don’t support more taxes, but if they are going to take it then at the very least do something good with it.

We can't stop them from taking our money? So by your statement since we can't stop the government from stealing our money we embrace it instead? "You can't take any more of my money! OK fine go ahead you can take more. But no more... hey I said stop. OK fine go head you can take more. But no more... hey I said stop..." That's a crude way of putting it but that's what I hear.

I’m not confused. I know without tax money we wouldn’t have the police, fire department, roads, education, and so many other programs that not only help the people but keep the infrastructure intact.

I will say this a billion times yes of course we need those types of things. What I don't understand is why any of you can't understand this. Libertarianism is not anarchism. You can call whatever something is you want but there is a general consensus and acceptance of terms. You can say a Democrat is a Communist you can say an elephant is a donkey. The fact of the matter is libertarianism is not anarchism and if you can't understand that than I urge you to open a few history books and unbiased articles.

I know without that we would have to pay even more to have a crime investigated, fires put out, and potholes and bridges repaired. I know that greedy people wont donate to charity, we need programs to help the poor get educated and a good start (yes there is abuse but where isn’t there?).

Public needs for the growth and stability of the economy. Not charity. Government forced charity is theft.

But if people are so evil and greedy as you say lets get rid of all charity organizations altogether and let the government decide who gets what, we've been heading in that direction for the past century why not go all the way?

[Thai Kimchi]

The govt taking money from people is not charity, it is extortion.


I take it you quit paying taxes? If not, have you at least filed a civil suit for this extortion, seeking reparations from the feds?

Not sure what you're saying.

[CosmicRocker]

Sorry, I can't get behind the legalization of all drugs. You mention alcohol - which I totally agree is a nasty drug and does a lot of damage. Looking back at history seems mankind NEEDS his alcohol. Hell, some say civilization took root when someone figured out how to make a primitive beer, and they all got together to pull as a team - increased output. Makes sense. But we can't open the gates to meth, heroin, crack, X, and all the rest. I think they should legalize pot and that's it.

Not sure about how important that fed reserve audit is - we don't necessarily want to scare everyone into a run on the bank.
Mankind needs "mood altering" - now called mind altering substances.

Alcohol goes way back, but so does peyote buttons, and hashish.

Shamans use Kava as a door to the spiritual world. I'm sure there are a few i'm missing.

{Kava is an ancient western Pacific crop related to the black pepper It is believed to have originated in Melanesia, and grows abundantly in the sunny Polynesian islands. Drank for hundreds of years by native islanders, it was only during Captain Cook’s voyage to the Pacific in 1768-1771 that the white man first encountered the plant and its consumption in sacred ceremonies. According to his account, natives would chew or pound the root and mix it with water to produce a brownish, often bitter brew which they then consumed for its psychoactive properties.}

Man has a self consciousness of death, existence in the universe, etc.
It's only natural that mankind would want to "play with one's head" to se what altered state mind would reveal.

That's why the Libs don't want any drugs illegal.
It's not up to the gummit to decide what you put in your body.
It' s your body - not belonging to any other earthly entity.
Any behaviors that lead to loss of self control, or crime, and then the gov't has a role .

[Thai Kimchi]

actually mankind need "mood altering" - now called mind altering substances.

Alcohol goes way back, but so does peyote buttons, and hashish.

Shamans use Kava as a door to the spiritual world. I'm sure there are a few i'm missing.

{Kava is an ancient western Pacific crop related to the black pepper It is believed to have originated in Melanesia, and grows abundantly in the sunny Polynesian islands. Drank for hundreds of years by native islanders, it was only during Captain Cook’s voyage to the Pacific in 1768-1771 that the white man first encountered the plant and its consumption in sacred ceremonies. According to his account, natives would chew or pound the root and mix it with water to produce a brownish, often bitter brew which they then consumed for its psychoactive properties.}

Man has a self consciousness of death, existence in the universe, etc.
It's only natural that mankind would want to "play with one's head" to se what altered state mind would reveal.

That's why the Libs don't want any drugs illegal.
It's not up to the gummit to decide what you put in your body.
It' s your body - not belonging to any other earthly entity.
Any behaviors that lead to loss of self control, or crime, and then the gov't has a role .

Any marijuana product should be totally legal, drunk driving laws should be made stricter, and highly addictive opiates and brain-trashing stimulents like meth and coke should never become readily available to the public - which inevitably includes the children.

[MintJulep]

I take it you quit paying taxes? If not, have you at least filed a civil suit for this extortion, seeking reparations from the feds?

Not sure what you're saying.
The govt taking taxes from hard working people and doling it out to bums is not charity, so it should not ever be called that -- it is theft. Perhaps you should refer to the quote in the OP as it applies here.

[CosmicRocker]

Any marijuana product should be totally legal, drunk driving laws should be made stricter, and highly addictive opiates and brain-trashing stimulents like meth and coke should never become readily available to the public - which inevitably includes the children.
Oh come on. we've had a "war on drugs" since Nixon, and periodic heavy prosecutions before that.

Where has it gotten us?
If anything Ecstacy, designer drugs, methamphetamine are ALL creations of an underground drug economy.

The drug cartels now control all these illegals, incluiding cocaine and heroin.

I'm an ex-addict. I was more than happy to consume Dilaudid,or oxy/hydrocodone instead of going on the street to find heroin.
I couldn't get a steady suppy of pharmaceuticals, so i sniffed ( never fired ) dope when i had too.

If a Dr. could give them to me in a clinic situation, like they do with methadone - i would never have used street drugs.
One used to be able to go to a drugstore an buy codeine cough syrup without a prescription.
That's the way my grandfather ran his addiction.

Same for cocaine, you sell it to individuals, and take the PROFIT out of the drug trade.

One thing is clear, weather it be pot, dope, blow, or snow - ppl will find a way to get it if they want it.
Sell it to them is as controlled a fashion as posible, and TAX it.

Taking drugs OUT of an ILLEGAL CULTURE that exits to supply the stuff,
would eliminate the cartels. how beautiful is that???

Do you have any idea of just how ruinious the cartels have been to Mexico?
Or Peru during the Shining Path?

The message is clear thoughout history.
You can't eliminate /or barely control drugs without a major police actions, jails, courts etc.

Then there is the personal damage done to addicts and their family living an essentially underground lifestyle.

MAke it above board, hold people in jail for selling to kids - mandatory jail term 1st time sale, and that's about the best way to go.

Oh ! and all that tax money raised ( huge sin taxes) could be spent on gov;t to help ppl, instead of DEA, Lawyers, guns, and dope monies.

[Thai Kimchi]

I dunno, cosmic. I've done my share of drugs in the day. I spent my twenties in the seventies, fer Chrisakes! Did every last 'recreational' drug known to man at the time, including all the opiates, quaaludes, barbs, hallucinogens, you name it.

You just have more faith in the US population than I. These slobs can barely hold their liquor, let alone cope with a massive heroin addiction, or pilot that pick 'em truck on the highway tweaking their brains out. No thanks.

Maybe by 30-40 years down the road Darwin's law will have rid us of these trogs - until then not a good idea.

[Hog Trash]

Oh come on. we've had a "war on drugs" since Nixon, and periodic heavy prosecutions before that.

Where has it gotten us?
If anything Ecstacy, designer drugs, methamphetamine are ALL creations of an underground drug economy.

The drug cartels now control all these illegals, incluiding cocaine and heroin.

I'm an ex-addict. I was more than happy to consume Dilaudid,or oxy/hydrocodone instead of going on the street to find heroin.
I couldn't get a steady suppy of pharmaceuticals, so i sniffed ( never fired ) dope when i had too.

If a Dr. could give them to me in a clinic situation, like they do with methadone - i would never have used street drugs.
One used to be able to go to a drugstore an buy codeine cough syrup without a prescription.
That's the way my grandfather ran his addiction.

Same for cocaine, you sell it to individuals, and take the PROFIT out of the drug trade.

One thing is clear, weather it be pot, dope, blow, or snow - ppl will find a way to get it if they want it.
Sell it to them is as controlled a fashion as posible, and TAX it.

Taking drugs OUT of an ILLEGAL CULTURE that exits to supply the stuff,
would eliminate the cartels. how beautiful is that???

Do you have any idea of just how ruinious the cartels have been to Mexico?
Or Peru during the Shining Path?

The message is clear thoughout history.
You can't eliminate /or barely control drugs without a major police actions, jails, courts etc.

Then there is the personal damage done to addicts and their family living an essentially underground lifestyle.

MAke it above board, hold people in jail for selling to kids - mandatory jail term 1st time sale, and that's about the best way to go.

Oh ! and all that tax money raised ( huge sin taxes) could be spent on gov;t to help ppl, instead of DEA, Lawyers, guns, and dope monies.Very good Cosmo!....We may have a libertarian in the making. :happy:

I dunno, cosmic. I've done my share of drugs in the day. I spent my twenties in the seventies, fer Chrisakes! Did every last 'recreational' drug known to man at the time, including all the opiates, quaaludes, barbs, hallucinogens, you name it.

You just have more faith in the US population than I. These slobs can barely hold their liquor, let alone cope with a massive heroin addiction, or pilot that pick 'em truck on the highway tweaking their brains out. No thanks.

Maybe by 30-40 years down the road Darwin's law will have rid us of these trogs - until then not a good idea.So TK can handle his days of drugs and partying but the rest of the people are to stupid and should be locked up.

Is it any wonder most sensible people believe liberals are self-centered morons who live in a fantasy land?

[Binky]

Since the implementation of government first began there has been and still are people all over the world who would disagree with you my friend.

Governments have been the most evil of all of human kinds conceptions...They have enslaved, oppressed, and murdered millions of people worldwide.

Nothing comes close to the pain, suffering and destruction that a government that has grown to powerful can bring about...You need some history lessons TK.


It seems history has been lost on the masses. For the most part, they are blinded by their own greed, insecurities, and their "just don't give a damn" mentalities.

Throughout history governments have used their control to put the proverbial nooses around their citizens necks, and tightening them whenever the urge arose. People have been maimed and slaughtered at the whim of their governments. It doesn't take road scholars to know this. It only takes researching and paying attention once one's head has been yanked from his/her butt. They'll know when it's out in daylight by the loud "pop" their heads will make upon reentry into the real world.

[CosmicRocker]

I dunno, cosmic. I've done my share of drugs in the day. I spent my twenties in the seventies, fer Chrisakes! Did every last 'recreational' drug known to man at the time, including all the opiates, quaaludes, barbs, hallucinogens, you name it.

You just have more faith in the US population than I. These slobs can barely hold their liquor, let alone cope with a massive heroin addiction, or pilot that pick 'em truck on the highway tweaking their brains out. No thanks.

Maybe by 30-40 years down the road Darwin's law will have rid us of these trogs - until then not a good idea.
I understand, i was a "wino-junko" pharmeutical trash can.

Here's my logic:
First major need is to get rid of the cartels, and underground drug culture.
You do it by changing the rules, taking ALL ( or most of it) of the profits out, and the social stigma of drug use.

You basically mainstream the ability of an individual to aquire his drugs of choice.
I'm thinking some thing along the idea of " Addiction management clinics"
Afterall; that's all a methadone clinic is.

You are under a Dr's authority to receive your dosages.
You get the drugs fill at pharmacys, who will dispense cocaine, and POSSIBLY heroin.

Dr's currently cannot write a prescription for any drug for a known addict.

Once you allow a Dr. to write "maitainance addict drug" supplies, you are there.
Of course there are controls, the devil is in the details, and if i had more time i'd go into them, but that is the main idea.

destroy the underground culturs, carterls, street pushers, accountants laundering monies, DEA, etc. - and replace it with a legal venue.

[Thai Kimchi]

I'll say one thing for the Looneytarians - their world vision is something to ponder.

Imagine a Looneytarian society where.....

AKs for the masses, no prob.

Hard drugs for anyone, no prob.

No regulation of big biz, no minimum wage, no Medicare or SS, no Post Office, no Dept of Education, no funding for libraries, any public programs whatsoever.

Yeah, that'd be an 'interesting' place to live alright. The few people deemed cost/effective by the Corporations for employment could afford their AKs and heroin, but the rest of the uneducated, disease ridden mob can go f themselves. Freakin' utopia.

[Citizen]

I'll say one thing for the Looneytarians - their world vision is something to ponder.

Imagine a Looneytarian society where.....

AKs for the masses, no prob.

Hard drugs for anyone, no prob.

No regulation of big biz, no minimum wage, no Medicare or SS, no Post Office, no Dept of Education, no funding for libraries, any public programs whatsoever.

Yeah, that'd be an 'interesting' place to live alright. The few people deemed cost/effective by the Corporations for employment could afford their AKs and heroin, but the rest of the uneducated, disease ridden mob can go f themselves. Freakin' utopia.

Isn't that so horrible that people get to choose for themselves.

I would spew a bunch of bullshit about your Utopian society but I'm not going to stoop to name calling and acting like an insolent child. Grow up.

[Thai Kimchi]

Isn't that so horrible that people get to choose for themselves.

I would spew a bunch of bullshit about your Utopian society but I'm not going to stoop to name calling and acting like an insolent child. Grow up.


You advocate tearing down modern society/civilization to make room for selfish, gun-toting, drug addled nutjobs, I should 'grow up'?

Okie dokie.

[Citizen]

You advocate tearing down modern society/civilization to make room for selfish, gun-toting, drug addled nutjobs, I should 'grow up'?

Okie dokie.

I'm not the one using childish language. Doesn't matter what someone's viewpoint is if someone acts like a little baby nobody is going to give a shit about what they say.

Fuck man, I have close family friends who are liberal Democrats but we are able to have honest and open discussions. I don't prejudge a person's character based on their political stance nor the color of their skin and stuff like that. You want to plug your ears up and make loud baby noises then that's your right. But there are adults here who enjoy having serious discussions concerning the lives of hundreds of millions of people. You don't want to take this shit seriously then go outside and play.

[Hog Trash]

I'll say one thing for the Looneytarians - their world vision is something to ponder.

Imagine a Looneytarian society where.....

AKs for the masses, no prob.

Hard drugs for anyone, no prob.

No regulation of big biz, no minimum wage, no Medicare or SS, no Post Office, no Dept of Education, no funding for libraries, any public programs whatsoever.

Yeah, that'd be an 'interesting' place to live alright. The few people deemed cost/effective by the Corporations for employment could afford their AKs and heroin, but the rest of the uneducated, disease ridden mob can go f themselves. Freakin' utopia.All of the worlds great leaders had followers just like you at one time who put them in power.

Including;

Vladimir Lenin

Pol Pot

Mao Tse Tung

Adolf Hitler

Fidel Castro

Just like you, the people who put them in power didn't think what they did could happen to them in their own country.

[xav8terx]

I have no confusion either.

Seems like we’re both pretty clear on what we believe in then. :)

I don't have a problem with that. I'm willing to pay my share but depends on what.

Exactly what I mean. I want to see it get put towards something useful.

'Help'? Well isn't that nice and nebulous.

Well everyone has their idea of help I suppose. Sometimes people do need help. Yes there are some that don’t try to help themselves but there are countless others who just don’t have the means.

I stated in my first post here I'm fighting for mine/your property rights (which I defined). Does that only sound like I'm looking out for my own interest? You shouldn't get to keep the money/property you acquire?

No it doesn’t and I apologize for stating otherwise. That is why I asked what part of the Libertarian beliefs you come from. Most of the Libertarians on here are only out for theirs and theirs only.

And I’m simply talking about taxes. That is the only thing that the government it currently “taking” from me. That is what they use to create these government programs. As I said they are taking our money regardless of what we feel about it so why not put it to good use instead of funding wars and all the other useless shit the “people” can’t use. It’s our money we are giving them, why not benefit from it.

We can't stop them from taking our money? So by your statement since we can't stop the government from stealing our money we embrace it instead? "You can't take any more of my money! OK fine go ahead you can take more. But no more... hey I said stop. OK fine go head you can take more. But no more... hey I said stop..." That's a crude way of putting it but that's what I hear.

Well short of a revolution, moving to a compound in Wisconsin, or risking prison, how do we stop them? Yes we can vote them out, but we would just put more back in. I would love to see a Libertarian get the high office…I would put money on the fact that taxes won’t go away.



I will say this a billion times yes of course we need those types of things. What I don't understand is why any of you can't understand this. Libertarianism is not anarchism. You can call whatever something is you want but there is a general consensus and acceptance of terms. You can say a Democrat is a Communist you can say an elephant is a donkey. The fact of the matter is libertarianism is not anarchism and if you can't understand that than I urge you to open a few history books and unbiased articles.

Ok, point taken. Again, some arguments made by a few of the Libertarians on here lean towards anarchy or they are not stating their point very well…which I am guilty of from time to time…I’m no writer. ;)

I know there are several levels of Libertarianism. I actually started looking into it, I even went to a few local meetings but I just couldn’t get behind what they were supporting. I agreed with some issues but only a few.



Public needs for the growth and stability of the economy. Not charity. Government forced charity is theft.

But if people are so evil and greedy as you say lets get rid of all charity organizations altogether and let the government decide who gets what, we've been heading in that direction for the past century why not go all the way?


I don’t think it’s quite that bad. There are some organizations out there that help but it’s obviously not enough.

[Citizen]

Seems like we’re both pretty clear on what we believe in then. :)

Exactly what I mean. I want to see it get put towards something useful.

Well everyone has their idea of help I suppose. Sometimes people do need help. Yes there are some that don’t try to help themselves but there are countless others who just don’t have the means.

So why do you believe can't they come from private entites or at least from govt. subsidized entities? That government is more efficient at reallocating money than by private means? For an economy to be productive whatever goes into the system you have to be certain that it will feed back. The more you are certain it will feed back or stabilize the economy the less you have to be against it. Not just think it might help the economy, because it has to. The economy comes first, special interest groups later (that includes corporate welfare as well).

No it doesn’t and I apologize for stating otherwise. That is why I asked what part of the Libertarian beliefs you come from. Most of the Libertarians on here are only out for theirs and theirs only.

Well then you have a right to call those people 'Paul-tards'. Of course any political platform or ideology for that matter can be misinterpreted by their own constituants. Every party has their share of loonies.

Anarchy only lasts so long until the biggest bully on the block finds a way to organize enough people to form an empire (or several warlord factions much like Somalia) and act as dictator for everybody. So, in reality, anarchy doesn't last very long and the unlimited freedom is usually short-lived.


And I’m simply talking about taxes. That is the only thing that the government it currently “taking” from me. That is what they use to create these government programs. As I said they are taking our money regardless of what we feel about it so why not put it to good use instead of funding wars and all the other useless shit the “people” can’t use. It’s our money we are giving them, why not benefit from it.

The government just doesn't take taxes from you. Taxes don't end at just your paycheck. They are collected from the business you work with and the businesses they work with. There's a domino effect.

You just have to think to yourself how is fighting for my/your property rights any less noble a cause than anything being proposed by government today?

Libertarianism is the system that maintains the most individual liberty without all of the chaos, mayhem, and bloodletting. At the same time, it facilitates a stable, prosperous, enlightened civilization.

Well short of a revolution, moving to a compound in Wisconsin, or risking prison, how do we stop them? Yes we can vote them out, but we would just put more back in. I would love to see a Libertarian get the high office…I would put money on the fact that taxes won’t go away.

How do you know that? How many libertarians have taken office and raised taxes? But I'm not ignoring the fact that any politician can be corrupt. You take the average honest God-fearing person into office and they are probably going to be dishonest and corrupt. Just the nature of the beast. I do have to say Ron Paul has been a God send. A politician like him only comes along once in a generation. I don't agree with him on some of his policies (abortion) but a lot of what he says makes sense. Now that is of course up to you to decide. But if taxes gets raised then its not libertarian policy.

Ok, point taken. Again, some arguments made by a few of the Libertarians on here lean towards anarchy or they are not stating their point very well…which I am guilty of from time to time…I’m no writer. ;)

I know there are several levels of Libertarianism. I actually started looking into it, I even went to a few local meetings but I just couldn’t get behind what they were supporting. I agreed with some issues but only a few.

I don’t think it’s quite that bad. There are some organizations out there that help but it’s obviously not enough.

Perhaps those organization can't fund their programs anymore because individuals are already taxed because the government decided to do it for them. Just take this into account, when federal income taxes began in 1913, the top tax rate was 7% on incomes above $500,000 ($10 million 2007 dollars). Today, it's 35% on incomes above $350,000.

[kres24GT]

LMAO @ anyone who supports freedom over fascism and the police state si "crazy".

[xav8terx]

So why do you believe can't they come from private entites or at least from govt. subsidized entities? That government is more efficient at reallocating money than by private means? For an economy to be productive whatever goes into the system you have to be certain that it will feed back. The more you are certain it will feed back or stabilize the economy the less you have to be against it. Not just think it might help the economy, because it has to. The economy comes first, special interest groups later (that includes corporate welfare as well).

It is my opinion that if it could come from private entities then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don’t actually think the government is “better” at allocating these monies but again, if they are taking it I would trust them giving it to those that needed over the private sector. I understand that there are charities out there but they are not doing enough. People like you and I don’t have the means (I’m assuming you’re an average Joe/Jane like myself) to give large amounts of money to charities, but those that can do this don’t for the most part. At the end of the day, what I pay into taxes doesn’t amount to all that much compared to the big picture. If I could get the couple hundred dollars back each pay period I still wouldn’t be able to give it to charities since I have my own shit I’m trying to take care of.


Anarchy only lasts so long until the biggest bully on the block finds a way to organize enough people to form an empire (or several warlord factions much like Somalia) and act as dictator for everybody. So, in reality, anarchy doesn't last very long and the unlimited freedom is usually short-lived.

Which is why I feel that government is needed.


The government just doesn't take taxes from you. Taxes don't end at just your paycheck. They are collected from the business you work with and the businesses they work with. There's a domino effect.

Yes, everyone is taxed. I look at it like paying rent. They provide the things I need…police, fire, safe food, roads, etc…

You just have to think to yourself how is fighting for my/your property rights any less noble a cause than anything being proposed by government today?

Well I agree with you that we should try to hold on to what is ours as much as we can. But lets say they do away with taxes; how do we fund the stuff we need…like police and such?

Libertarianism is the system that maintains the most individual liberty without all of the chaos, mayhem, and bloodletting. At the same time, it facilitates a stable, prosperous, enlightened civilization.

But that is exactly what all the other political parties say. They all want us to believe that they are here for us but when it comes down to it they really are not.


How do you know that? How many libertarians have taken office and raised taxes? But I'm not ignoring the fact that any politician can be corrupt. You take the average honest God-fearing person into office and they are probably going to be dishonest and corrupt. Just the nature of the beast. I do have to say Ron Paul has been a God send. A politician like him only comes along once in a generation. I don't agree with him on some of his policies (abortion) but a lot of what he says makes sense. Now that is of course up to you to decide. But if taxes gets raised then its not libertarian policy.

But if a Libertarian was to get elected (by some miracle they are not corrupted by lobbyist and power…the white house seems to have that affect), how are they going to put money into the budget?


Perhaps those organization can't fund their programs anymore because individuals are already taxed because the government decided to do it for them. Just take this into account, when federal income taxes began in 1913, the top tax rate was 7% on incomes above $500,000 ($10 million 2007 dollars). Today, it's 35% on incomes above $350,000.

I would also note that we didn’t have 20 million dollar aircraft to pay for, we weren’t launching space shuttles into orbit, we weren’t dropping “smart bombs” over Baghdad, we didn’t have Social Security, and we weren’t bailing out insurance firms and everything else. I’m not saying any of that was necessary and I am by no means trying to justify it but they are facts of life right now and the money has to come from somewhere.

[kres24GT]

It is my opinion that if it could come from private entities then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don’t actually think the government is “better” at allocating these monies but again, if they are taking it I would trust them giving it to those that needed over the private sector. I understand that there are charities out there but they are not doing enough. People like you and I don’t have the means (I’m assuming you’re an average Joe/Jane like myself) to give large amounts of money to charities, but those that can do this don’t for the most part. At the end of the day, what I pay into taxes doesn’t amount to all that much compared to the big picture. If I could get the couple hundred dollars back each pay period I still wouldn’t be able to give it to charities since I have my own shit I’m trying to take care of.




Which is why I feel that government is needed.




Yes, everyone is taxed. I look at it like paying rent. They provide the things I need…police, fire, safe food, roads, etc…



Well I agree with you that we should try to hold on to what is ours as much as we can. But lets say they do away with taxes; how do we fund the stuff we need…like police and such?



But that is exactly what all the other political parties say. They all want us to believe that they are here for us but when it comes down to it they really are not.




But if a Libertarian was to get elected (by some miracle they are not corrupted by lobbyist and power…the white house seems to have that affect), how are they going to put money into the budget?




I would also note that we didn’t have 20 million dollar aircraft to pay for, we weren’t launching space shuttles into orbit, we weren’t dropping “smart bombs” over Baghdad, we didn’t have Social Security, and we weren’t bailing out insurance firms and everything else. I’m not saying any of that was necessary and I am by no means trying to justify it but they are facts of life right now and the money has to come from somewhere.


Imagine a free society where we could give our dollars to causes we believe in and are not forced to give to the ones we aren't.

[Hog Trash]

But if a Libertarian was to get elected (by some miracle they are not corrupted by lobbyist and power…the white house seems to have that affect), how are they going to put money into the budget?Taxes are to high because the budget is to high....Correcting one will fix both....Get it?

I would also note that we didn’t have 20 million dollar aircraft to pay for, we weren’t launching space shuttles into orbit, we weren’t dropping “smart bombs” over Baghdad, we didn’t have Social Security, and we weren’t bailing out insurance firms and everything else. I’m not saying any of that was necessary and I am by no means trying to justify it but they are facts of life right now and the money has to come from somewhere.They are only "facts of life" because you have been programmed by the DemoPublicans to except them as such.

[xav8terx]

Taxes are to high because the budget is to high....Correcting one will fix both....Get it?

So they would eliminate everything?

They are only "facts of life" because you have been programmed by the DemoPublicans to except them as such.



No, it's because we have to pay them. Who said i "accept" them? If me not wanting to go to prison and have the feds show up at my door equals acceptance than i guess i have. But that would mean you have as well, unless of course you don't pay your taxes...but if thats the case then you have no issues with them.

[xav8terx]

Imagine a free society where we could give our dollars to causes we believe in and are not forced to give to the ones we aren't.


It would be great but imagination is far from reality.

[Hog Trash]

So they would eliminate everything?

No, it's because we have to pay them. Who said i "accept" them? If me not wanting to go to prison and have the feds show up at my door equals acceptance than i guess i have. But that would mean you have as well, unless of course you don't pay your taxes...but if thats the case then you have no issues with them.LOL! :lmao2: You not only except them, you promote many of them...Especialy the ones your "Party" tells you are necessary...You agree with your party regularly.

One side says, "we need this that and the other", while the other side says, "no, what we need is this that and the other"...And the sheep nod their heads in agreement.

[xav8terx]

LOL! :lmao2: You not only except them, you promote many of them...Especialy the ones your "Party" tells you are necessary...You agree with your party regularly.

One side says, "we need this that and the other", while the other side says, "no, what we need is this that and the other"...And the sheep nod their heads in agreement.

Which ones do I promote? Yes i like the police force to be funded, yes i like safe food, and yes I feel safer knowing if my place starts burning help is around the corner. Who do you expect to pay for these services?


And if your party was to be elected they would do the same. You're just sad because they haven't been given the opportunity...maybe you should take a hint from the public.

[kres24GT]

It would be great but imagination is far from reality.


Thanks to government brainwashing, it sure is.

[xav8terx]

Thanks to government brainwashing, it sure is.

So again, a funded police force is brainwashing? Safe food is brainwashing? Roads to get from a to b is brainwashing? Are these really just things to believe in or needed services? This is exactly why Libertarians will never make it past a local level.

[kres24GT]

So again, a funded police force is brainwashing? Safe food is brainwashing? Roads to get from a to b is brainwashing? Are these really just things to believe in or needed services? This is exactly why Libertarians will never make it past a local level.

Some things we need government to do, many we do not, FDA for instance.

But even is we do need government to provide these services we can do so without seizing money.


Of course government brainwashing is so strong people cannot even fathom a world where corrupt government doesn't make sure their food isn't going to kill them.

[xav8terx]

Some things we need government to do, many we do not, FDA for instance.

But even is we do need government to provide these services we can do so without seizing money.


Of course government brainwashing is so strong people cannot even fathom a world where corrupt government doesn't make sure their food isn't going to kill them.


It isn't brainwashing, it is fact. How much mercury is being found in fish because of pollution...yet another reason for government regulations. It is hard reality.

[Citizen]

It is my opinion that if it could come from private entities then we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don’t actually think the government is “better” at allocating these monies but again, if they are taking it

The government has no right to take anything. We allow them take our money, we are not forced. Our constitution starts out, "We the people..." not "We the government..." There are clauses and protections in our Constitution that can repeal government laws and sanctions. True they can take our monies but we can take it back.

I would trust them giving it to those that needed over the private sector. I understand that there are charities out there but they are not doing enough. People like you and I don’t have the means (I’m assuming you’re an average Joe/Jane like myself) to give large amounts of money to charities, but those that can do this don’t for the most part. At the end of the day, what I pay into taxes doesn’t amount to all that much compared to the big picture. If I could get the couple hundred dollars back each pay period I still wouldn’t be able to give it to charities since I have my own shit I’m trying to take care of.

There will still be poor and unfortunate people in society. But that percentage is of course greatly reduced if everyone has more of their individual property rights. So yes there might be less donations because there is less need for that resource than in a society where individual property rights are stripped left and right. Tax incentives would also be included but if there is less a need for charities tax incentives wouldn't need to be as high.

Yes, everyone is taxed. I look at it like paying rent. They provide the things I need…police, fire, safe food, roads, etc…

Well I agree with you that we should try to hold on to what is ours as much as we can. [B]But lets say they do away with taxes; how do we fund the stuff we need…like police and such?

Why would we want to do that? I'll say it again and again and again I'm against anarchy and government absence. I thought I was perfectly clear on this.

But that is exactly what all the other political parties say. They all want us to believe that they are here for us but when it comes down to it they really are not.

That's the problem any political platform faces. So why nurture it? Why not support a platform that at least confronts this problem? Cut it off at the head so-to-speak. Give less power to those politicians so they don't have the power to steal.

But if a Libertarian was to get elected (by some miracle they are not corrupted by lobbyist and power…the white house seems to have that affect), how are they going to put money into the budget?

Don't, cut taxes and reduce spending. At least everything would eventually fall into place better than taking it then deciding how to spend it.

I would also note that we didn’t have 20 million dollar aircraft to pay for, we weren’t launching space shuttles into orbit, we weren’t dropping “smart bombs” over Baghdad, we didn’t have Social Security, and we weren’t bailing out insurance firms and everything else. I’m not saying any of that was necessary and I am by no means trying to justify it but they are facts of life right now and the money has to come from somewhere.

That's the thing, to see how far we've strayed from our founding principles only underlines the importance of halting then reducing government expansion. Social institutions can only expand, cost goes up, more problems arise. We won't be able to cut these programs overnight, even the great Ron Paul says many programs have to be gradually phased out. In my view more government expansion leads to the need for more government expansion.

[kres24GT]

It isn't brainwashing, it is fact. How much mercury is being found in fish because of pollution...yet another reason for government regulations. It is hard reality.


Not at all. That is government brainwashing. It is absurd.


Do you have kids, do they need government to tell them not to eat something that someone offers them that they don't know where it came from? Not at all. Funny that even children can figure it out without government, but we can't.


Having a corrupt government monopoly ensure the food you are eating is safe is the only and best way to do it, it is absurd of course.


"We can't do it without government". That is insane thinking, but goes to show how well we have been programmed.

[xav8terx]

The government has no right to take anything. We allow them take our money, we are not forced. Our constitution starts out, "We the people..." not "We the government..." There are clauses and protections in our Constitution that can repeal government laws and sanctions. True they can take our monies but we can take it back.

Well again, outside all out revolution and/or prison what is the plan? I would love to take back a lot of my money (lol just to put it towards another debt :))


There will still be poor and unfortunate people in society. But that percentage is of course greatly reduced if everyone has more of their individual property rights. So yes there might be less donations because there is less need for that resource than in a society where individual property rights are stripped left and right. Tax incentives would also be included but if there is less a need for charities tax incentives wouldn't need to be as high..

I agree with that to a point but welfare isn’t the only thing our tax money is being spent on. But from I have read from you i know you want to reduce most the other BS we spend the taxes on also. :thumbsup:


Why would we want to do that? I'll say it again and again and again I'm against anarchy and government absence. I thought I was perfectly clear on this..

Well I didn’t mean to put no taxes with total anarchy. When I brought up the anarchy thing I was meaning total lack of government in all areas of life not just the tax issue; which is what I thought you were alluding to before you explained your position. My apologies if I mislead you on that. :o


That's the problem any political platform faces. So why nurture it? Why not support a platform that at least confronts this problem? Cut it off at the head so-to-speak. Give less power to those politicians so they don't have the power to steal..

It seems that this power and influence isn't coming from Washington, it's coming from corporations with a whole hell of a lot of money to burn. It's a never ending cycle. I would love to see a third party in the office but I just don’t have high hopes that they will overcome that influence. It will just become a new set of issues.


Don't, cut taxes and reduce spending. At least everything would eventually fall into place better than taking it then deciding how to spend it..

That sure sounds nice but until we get these lobbyists under wraps I don’t have an optimistic outlook on that.


That's the thing, to see how far we've strayed from our founding principles only underlines the importance of halting then reducing government expansion. Social institutions can only expand, cost goes up, more problems arise. We won't be able to cut these programs overnight, even the great Ron Paul says many programs have to be gradually phased out. In my view more government expansion leads to the need for more government expansion.


I certainly agree with this. But again, it isn’t just social programs that have to go in my opinion.

[Citizen]

Well again, outside all out revolution and/or prison what is the plan? I would love to take back a lot of my money (lol just to put it towards another debt :))

Vote, educate, spread the word... Its worked before. There's no easy solution to anything with government, so you've gotta fight for your individual property rights.

I agree with that to a point but welfare isn’t the only thing our tax money is being spent on. But from I have read from you i know you want to reduce most the other BS we spend the taxes on also. :thumbsup:

What's important to know about welfare is inside what it means. Welfare is aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b : an agency or program through which such aid is distributed. So we're talking aid not full support. Aiding something or someone is a temporary fix not a permanent fixture.


Well I didn’t mean to put no taxes with total anarchy. When I brought up the anarchy thing I was meaning total lack of government in all areas of life not just the tax issue; which is what I thought you were alluding to before you explained your position. My apologies if I mislead you on that. :o

No problem.

It seems that this power and influence isn't coming from Washington, it's coming from corporations with a whole hell of a lot of money to burn. It's a never ending cycle. I would love to see a third party in the office but I just don’t have high hopes that they will overcome that influence. It will just become a new set of issues.

That sure sounds nice but until we get these lobbyists under wraps I don’t have an optimistic outlook on that.

I certainly agree with this. But again, it isn’t just social programs that have to go in my opinion.

Libertarianism cuts out corporate welfare. Cut any/most tax incentives for big businesses. Prosperity for businesses should come from the consumer voting confidence and not from government welfare. No matter how big or small a business gets, with the right to succeed comes the right to fail. What may seem like negligence with government refusing support these institutions is not negligence for emerging smaller businesses.

I see the government propping all these corporations getting tax subsidies and incentives, meanwhile the little guy is just trying to get started while those corporate monstrosities soar off into the stratosphere. So as you see there is no free market society when competition gets cut off. Where's the lobbyist representing Joe's Pizza downtown?

[xav8terx]

Do you have kids, do they need government to tell them not to eat something that someone offers them that they don't know where it came from? Not at all. Funny that even children can figure it out without government, but we can't.


Unless you hunt, how do you know where your food comes from?


"We can't do it without government". That is insane thinking, but goes to show how well we have been programmed.


I don’t think so. Look back at how fire departments were ran before the government took them over. They were ran by insurance companies (funny how insurance companies are still causing economic issues). If you didn't have a plaque then you were screwed. Some things need to be left to private industries, no one will disagree but there are areas (especially public health) were private industries need to be left out, sometimes profits are not the only concern.

[kres24GT]

Unless you hunt, how do you know where your food comes from?





I don’t think so. Look back at how fire departments were ran before the government took them over. They were ran by insurance companies (funny how insurance companies are still causing economic issues). If you didn't have a plaque then you were screwed. Some things need to be left to private industries, no one will disagree but there are areas (especially public health) were private industries need to be left out, sometimes profits are not the only concern.



How do you know where it comes form now? If you want to turn things over to public entities go ahead, I don't always disagree, but make sure they are government entities and government employees, not just government controlling private citizens and companies they don't own.

A government telling a non governmetn employee how much they can charge for their services or how much they can make is simply unacceptable.

The idea that we need a corrupt government monopoly to make sure we all eat non poison food is laughable though. If the FDA doesn't properly protect us, which they often don't, what are the consequences? There are none, they are a monopoly.

[xav8terx]

How do you know where it comes form now? If you want to turn things over to public entities go ahead, I don't always disagree, but make sure they are government entities and government employees, not just government controlling private citizens and companies they don't own.

A government telling a non governmetn employee how much they can charge for their services or how much they can make is simply unacceptable.

The idea that we need a corrupt government monopoly to make sure we all eat non poison food is laughable though. If the FDA doesn't properly protect us, which they often don't, what are the consequences? There are none, they are a monopoly.

I'm not really concerned about how much they get paid, I more concerned with the regulations put into place to keep our food safe. Is it a 100% system...no, but what is. I feel a lot safer knowing there are regulations in place keeping contaminants out of my food; having shit that comes from over seas inspected, and etc...

[kres24GT]

I'm not really concerned about how much they get paid, I more concerned with the regulations put into place to keep our food safe. Is it a 100% system...no, but what is. I feel a lot safer knowing there are regulations in place keeping contaminants out of my food; having shit that comes from over seas inspected, and etc...


I'd feel a lot safer with private non monopoly inspections with consequences to failure, but that is just me.

I am not for no government, I am for government where necessary. Sadly we have gone way past that and we are paying the price for it now, literally and figuratively. We have almost exhausted what we can borrow to pay for all this Big Government we want. Now we will actually have to pay for it.

[xav8terx]

I'd feel a lot safer with private non monopoly inspections with consequences to failure, but that is just me.

I am not for no government, I am for government where necessary. Sadly we have gone way past that and we are paying the price for it now, literally and figuratively. We have almost exhausted what we can borrow to pay for all this Big Government we want. Now we will actually have to pay for it.


Well you do realize the possibility of failure includes death don't you? We are not talking about small engines or bouncy balls. Do you have kids? If so, is your concern with government so great you are willing to risk your children's lives?

[kres24GT]

Well you do realize the possibility of failure includes death don't you? We are not talking about small engines or bouncy balls. Do you have kids? If so, is your concern with government so great you are willing to risk your children's lives?

Exactly why I prefer my way. With lives on the line a corrupt government monopoly with no consequences to failure is not who I want with my life in their hands. Like I said, that is just me, different strokes for different folks.

[Hog Trash]

Which ones do I promote? Yes i like the police force to be funded, yes i like safe food, and yes I feel safer knowing if my place starts burning help is around the corner. Who do you expect to pay for these services?


And if your party was to be elected they would do the same. You're just sad because they haven't been given the opportunity...maybe you should take a hint from the public.How about the lastest one your party masters have told you to support....Nationalized Healthcare....Yea-Yea, I know...That's your own idea!

[xav8terx]

How about the lastest one your party masters have told you to support....Nationalized Healthcare....Yea-Yea, I know...That's your own idea!

Oh the fuckin horror...

[Hog Trash]

Oh the fuckin horror...Ahhh, you're not sore are ya? :D