The Dangerous Minimum Wage Mirage

[MintJulep]

Why raising the minimum wage will hurt workers and worsen the economy

Steve Chapman (http://www.reason.com/contrib/show/289.html) | July 23, 2009

The federal government is trying to strengthen the U.S. auto industry. So here's a great idea for what it can do: Tell the Big Three to raise their prices across the board.

That would help in some obvious ways. Higher prices would mean bigger profit margins on every sale. Bigger profits would mean more jobs. More jobs would mean more workers buying new American cars.

But anyone can see that raising prices wouldn't work, because it would dry up sales. If American consumers were willing to pay more for American cars, dealers would already be charging higher prices. This is such an obviously boneheaded idea that no one would ever dream of doing it.

But in the realm of employee compensation, the federal government is taking that absurd notion and putting it into law. Come Friday, the federally mandated minimum wage will jump from $6.55 an hour to $7.25—an 11 percent increase. At a time when employers are laying off workers, Washington is going to make it more expensive to keep them.

If you're a minimum wage employee, your job will pay more, but only if it still exists. These days, most companies are scrutinizing every position on the payroll to make sure it's worth the cost. Raise the toll, and some employees will find they are no longer valuable enough to make the cut.

Economists generally agree that increases in the minimum wage cause unemployment even when the economy is prospering—something it has not been doing for the last year and a half. David Neumark, a professor at the University of California, Irvine, estimates this rise will destroy some 300,000 jobs among teens and young adults.

Even proponents of the increase understand the tradeoff. Otherwise they would demand an even bigger hike. If you can force employers to pay higher wages without reducing employment, why set the minimum at $7.25 an hour? Why not $17.25? Why not $37.25?

The suspension of disbelief required to support the minimum wage will only take you so far. It's impossible to deny that if it were illegal to pay someone less than a mere $36 an hour, a lot of jobs would vanish. But a small dose of poison is still poison, and in this case it's being administered to a patient who is already ill.

Supporters make a virtue of bad timing by claiming the change will provide a stimulus exactly when the economy needs it. The liberal Economic Policy Institute in Washington insists that a minimum wage increase "would not only benefit low-income working families, but it would also provide a boost to consumer spending and the broader economy."

Not likely. Companies, unlike the government, can't create cash at will. Any money they give to workers has to be obtained by cutting jobs, reducing employee benefits, or slashing other expenses that happen to be someone's income. Net stimulus: zero.

Besides eliminating minimum wage jobs, the increase stands to have another little-noticed effect: pushing people into jobs that pay even less. Some employees are exempt from the law, including those working in newspaper delivery, fishing, and seasonal amusement parks, as well as staffers at companies with annual revenues of less than $500,000 a year.

Doesn't sound like a big group, does it? But in 2008, reports the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1.94 million Americans were below the "minimum" wage—compared to 286,000 getting the actual minimum. When the floor went unchanged for 10 years, the number of workers in sub-minimum jobs steadily declined. But in 2007, when the mandate went from $5.15 to $5.85, the total climbed by 14 percent, at a time when overall employment was stable.

That's not a coincidence. Economist Alan Reynolds of the libertarian Cato Institute in Washington has found that when the minimum wage went up in 1996 and 1997, the number of workers beneath the floor expanded by more than 75 percent—even though the economy was booming. It looks like the minimum wage destroys some low-paying jobs and replaces them with lower-paying ones, to the detriment of the people who are supposed to benefit.

Economics punctures alluring myths about the sources of material improvement, which is why it is known as the "dismal science." But the victims of the minimum wage will find that the truly dismal thing about economics is what happens when you ignore it.

http://www.reason.com/news/printer/134981.html

[Smurf-Herder]

Looks like Michigan is going right over the cliff on this one.

State Dems propose $10 minimum wage
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090723/POLITICS02/907230392/State-Dems-propose-$10-minimum-wage

[MintJulep]

This is crazy. Why strap the employers with even more expense during a time they are barely making ends meet? This won't hurt the "rich" (small business owners), it will throw those in the middle class into poverty and give a small bump to those in poverty. I can barely bring myself to read the news anymore. I'm afraid to see what is next. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[doctordog]

This is crazy. Why strap the employers with even more expense during a time they are barely making ends meet? This won't hurt the "rich" (small business owners), it will throw those in the middle class into poverty and give a small bump to those in poverty. I can barely bring myself to read the news anymore. I'm afraid to see what is next. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

the more changes I see from this administration the more I am puzzled as to what exactly "educated" actually means in 2009. Some of these changes from these "idealist" are announced off the cuff with little planning or strategy involved.

[Life_Long_Dem!]

Under your thinking ll7 even though the cost of EVERYTHING goes up on a yearly basis...cost of living...cost of food...gas...etc minimum wage should never go up, bet you would be SOOOO happy if it went back to being 3-4 bucks an hour like it was when i started working when I was 18? that is the most ASSININE logic I have EVER heard. yes short term issues and problems arise from increasing the minimum wage but the long term benefits outway those. How do you propose some making minimum wage of say 10 years ago would pay for a house that these days averages around 80-100 thousand + in costs( and thats for a modest home)?

[MintJulep]

Under your thinking ll7 even though the cost of EVERYTHING goes up on a yearly basis...cost of living...cost of food...gas...etc minimum wage should never go up, bet you would be SOOOO happy if it went back to being 3-4 bucks an hour like it was when i started working when I was 18? that is the most ASSININE logic I have EVER heard. yes short term issues and problems arise from increasing the minimum wage but the long term benefits outway those. How do you propose some making minimum wage of say 10 years ago would pay for a house that these days averages around 80-100 thousand + in costs( and thats for a modest home)?Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be careers. They pay nothing because the workers are unskilled. If someone wants to make a higher salary, they need a set of marketable skills an employer is willing to pay for. It only hurts the economy and those in the middle class. If it didn't have such a grave effect, it would be raised to $20/hour or more.

[doctordog]

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be careers. They pay nothing because the workers are unskilled. If someone wants to make a higher salary, they need a set of marketable skills an employer is willing to pay for. It only hurts the economy and those in the middle class. If it didn't have such a grave effect, it would be raised to $20/hour or more.

Exactly, people that have never run a business will never understand return on investment.

[MintJulep]

Exactly, people that have never run a business will never understand return on investment.What I hate most about this President and Administration is the class warfare they constantly try to instigate. As if taking money from the "rich" is going to make everyone rich and the dumb sheep swallow it hook, line and sinker. They don't stop to realize a poor person has never given them a job.

[doctordog]

What I hate most about this President and Administration is the class warfare they constantly try to instigate. As if taking money from the "rich" is going to make everyone rich and the dumb sheep swallow it hook, line and sinker. They don't stop to realize a poor person has never given them a job.

They also don't realize that many poor people are poor by choice. I have a family member that inherited some around 400k 3 years ago from an elderly person with no kids. In 1.5 years she was asking her parents for money. Some people just can't rise above their habits and I don't think we should be expected to bail them out all the time.

[Zebulon0351]

So you guys are against the welfare system, but you are also against giving the working poor a little more money to help pull them OUT of welfare?

[Zebulon0351]

They also don't realize that many poor people are poor by choice. I have a family member that inherited some around 400k 3 years ago from an elderly person with no kids. In 1.5 years she was asking her parents for money. Some people just can't rise above their habits and I don't think we should be expected to bail them out all the time.

some people.

many poor people

But you are trying to blanket the entire poor population. What is your suggestion for an alternative to fight poverty in this country?

[MintJulep]

So you guys are against the welfare system, but you are also against giving the working poor a little more money to help pull them OUT of welfare?At the expense of pushing those above the poverty line into poverty? Yes.

[MintJulep]

They also don't realize that many poor people are poor by choice. I have a family member that inherited some around 400k 3 years ago from an elderly person with no kids. In 1.5 years she was asking her parents for money. Some people just can't rise above their habits and I don't think we should be expected to bail them out all the time.No, there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your decisions and actions and work to fix it. It isn't up to your neighbor down the street to pay your way.

[doctordog]

some people.

many poor people

But you are trying to blanket the entire poor population. What is your suggestion for an alternative to fight poverty in this country?

Close off the borders, ship illegals home. Force these people that don't want to work to at least pick oranges, cut tobacco, taker general labor jobs. If they are on the government check, they work it off either on road projects or state highway crews.

[Zebulon0351]

Close off the borders, ship illegals home. Force these people that don't want to work to at least pick oranges, cut tobacco, taker general labor jobs. If they are on the government check, they work it off either on road projects or state highway crews.

The immigration problem Im sure contributes to our poverty levels. I agree to shutting the borders. Which makes me wonder why Dubya never completed his wall. So focused on National Security.. and he wouldn't even finish a wall to keep the mexicans.. and Al Qaeda out of our country.

[doctordog]

The immigration problem Im sure contributes to our poverty levels. I agree to shutting the borders. Which makes me wonder why Dubya never completed his wall. So focused on National Security.. and he wouldn't even finish a wall to keep the mexicans.. and Al Qaeda out of our country.

We shall never know, I would rather do a highly charged fence so at least the buzzards won't starve.

[Zebulon0351]

We shall never know, I would rather do a highly charged fence so at least the buzzards won't starve.

Traditional Values

Morality

[doctordog]

Traditional Values

Morality

Damn right, animals have to eat too.

[Zebulon0351]

Damn right, animals have to eat too.

Traditional Values

Morality

This, ladies and gentlemen is the party of the Moral Agenda.

Bravo.. The party of Reagan.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

[doctordog]

Traditional Values

Morality

This, ladies and gentlemen is the party of the Moral Agenda.

Bravo.. The party of Reagan.

:lmao2: :lmao2:

This same party treats every woman like they would their mother. We see how you treat yours, do you represent the Democratic party as well?:lmao2:

[Zebulon0351]

This same party treats every woman like they would their mother. We see how you treat yours, do you represent the Democratic party as well?:lmao2:

Hey asswipe, I have said my peace already. I have apologized to those I offended in here, and realized I went over the line. But even if I had not, I am not the one in here who supports legislating morality either.

My comments were directed to one individual. Not an entire demographic. Your argument here is not valid or sound.

So what is your point?

[doctordog]

Hey asswipe, I have said my peace already. I have apologized to those I offended in here, and realized I went over the line. But even if I had not, I am not the one in here who supports legislating morality either.

So what is your point?

I have never legislated morality or even tried to. Everytime you post that weakass argument I am going to be there to remind you of your indifference to women. If you don't like it come up with something better.

[Life_Long_Dem!]

Hey asswipe, I have said my peace already. I have apologized to those I offended in here, and realized I went over the line. But even if I had not, I am not the one in here who supports legislating morality either.

My comments were directed to one individual. Not an entire demographic. Your argument here is not valid or sound.

So what is your point?
Dont let it bother you man...dont sweat it, these hypocrites are not worth getting pissed over. I clarified myself on my stance on the military and the war on terror a dozen times to SC and he still felt the need to misqoute me and rub it in my face. Let them have this...its all they have to live for anymore these days.

[Binky]

No, there comes a time when you have to take responsibility for your decisions and actions and work to fix it. It isn't up to your neighbor down the street to pay your way.


It seems in this day and age, people are wanting others to be accountable for them, rather than themselves. There is a serious lack of responsibility. Too many people reaching for a handout and most of them have no humility and believe it's owed to them. They are more than delighted to sit on their backsides wastin' away the day, while the rest of us get out and work at anything we can get. And then they reach for our checks.....

In fact, many are of the mindset that they are just too damn awesome and it's far beneith them to get a job at a fast food restaurant. In an age where jobs are becoming harder to find, I would think, any job is better than no job....

But alas, freeloaders don't think like that. All they do is consume, consume, consume and take, take, take and never giving anything back....

[Zebulon0351]

It seems in this day and age, people are wanting others to be accountable for them, rather than themselves. There is a serious lack of responsibility. Too many people reaching for a handout and most of them have no humility and believe it's owed to them. They are more than delighted to sit on their backsides wastin' away the day, while the rest of us get out and work at anything we can get. And then they reach for our checks.....

In fact, many are of the mindset that they are just too damn awesome and it's far beneith them to get a job at a fast food restaurant. In an age where jobs are becoming harder to find, I would think, any job is better than no job....

But alas, freeloaders don't think like that. All they do is consume, consume, consume and take, take, take and never giving anything back....

Why don't you tell us all exactly what you have contributed back to society Binky?

[MintJulep]

It seems in this day and age, people are wanting others to be accountable for them, rather than themselves. There is a serious lack of responsibility. Too many people reaching for a handout and most of them have no humility and believe it's owed to them. They are more than delighted to sit on their backsides wastin' away the day, while the rest of us get out and work at anything we can get. And then they reach for our checks..Right? That's what makes me mad. If you don't want to work, fine, but don't come after what I've worked for to support yourself with.

[MintJulep]

Why don't you tell us all exactly what you have contributed back to society Binky?If she has a job she is a contributing member of society because she pays taxes. Those who don't work contribute nothing, only take.

[doctordog]

Right? That's what makes me mad. If you don't want to work, fine, but don't come after what I've worked for to support yourself with.

and the left wonders where we get our socialist labels:lmao2:

[Zebulon0351]

and the left wonders where we get our socialist labels:lmao2:

So again.. what do you guys propose as an alternative? Let the poor starve?

Traditional Values

Morality

You spend too much time worrying about feeding the hungry in Africa than you do feeding the hungry in your own country.

Party of Reagan... :lmao2: :lmao2:

[doctordog]

So again.. what do you guys propose as an alternative? Let the poor starve?

Traditional Values

Morality

You spend too much time worrying about feeding the hungry in Africa than you do feeding the hungry in your own country.

Party of Reagan... :lmao2: :lmao2:

That is the 2nd stupidest post you have posted so far. We propose letting the poor contribute to feeding themselves. Are you deaf or just to damn dumb to understand that?

[Hog Trash]

So you guys are against the welfare system, but you are also against giving the working poor a little more money to help pull them OUT of welfare?Poor Zeb and his liberal Robin Hoods are going to save the working poor people with a 10 dollar an hour minimum wage.

A riddle for anyone who may Know the answer!...Do liberals become stupid people or do stupid people become liberals?

[mwillman]

You didnt answer his question Hog.

So basically you seem to be for just letting the poor suffer and die as long as you don't have to help in any way or do anything, right?

[MintJulep]

Other than someone who is blind or disabled, why can't the poor make an attempt to help themselves?

What is your solution? Throwing money at those who want to live off the govt obviously doesn't do it. The past 40 years are proof of that.

[mwillman]

So, what about the poor that try to help themselves but they can't for what ever reason, they got sick, they have sick parents, they were foster kids with no education. The list of real life heart wrenching stories goes on and on in this world.

I am all for helping fix the problems that create these issues, How about better schools, how about better health care, The field of life is not equal and to just callously ignore that becuase you made it is at the very least selfish.

[Hog Trash]

You didnt answer his question Hog.

So basically you seem to be for just letting the poor suffer and die as long as you don't have to help in any way or do anything, right?Liberals don't seem to understand poverty or it's causes...You can't cure poverty with government givaways and handouts.

People must stress the importance of education to their children and instill in them a sense of self-reliance and a good work ethic.

People are responsible for their own situations...There will always be a segment of society that will struggle through life...It is unavoidable.

I have known severely handicapped people who have refused to give up and are very independent, self-sufficient and productive citizens.

I have known perfectly able people who for one reason or another can not hold a job and constantly blame their failures on everything in the world but themselves.

There is nothing that can or should be done for these people unless of course their friends family or charity organizations wish to feed cloth and house them.

On the other hand if a person is so handicapped or disabled through no fault of their own, I would have no problem with a state or local government program to assist them.

[MintJulep]

So, what about the poor that try to help themselves but they can't for what ever reason, they got sick, they have sick parents, they were foster kids with no education. The list of real life heart wrenching stories goes on and on in this world.

I am all for helping fix the problems that create these issues, How about better schools, how about better health care, The field of life is not equal and to just callously ignore that becuase you made it is at the very least selfish.I have no problem with assisting those genuinely in need. My beef is with the rampant abuse and the lazy asses, which is colossal.

[MintJulep]

I have known severely handicapped people who have refused to give up and are very independent, self-sufficient and productive citizens.

I have known perfectly able people who for one reason or another can not hold a job and constantly blame their failures on everything in the world but themselves.

There is nothing that can or should be done for these people unless of course their friends family or charity organizations wish to feed cloth and house them.

On the other hand if a person is so handicapped or disabled through no fault of their own, I would have no problem with a state or local government program to assist them.My sentiments exactly.

[Tommy]

I think the Minimum Wage raises should be married to congresional raises.. So if congress gets a 2% raise then Minimum Wage goes up 2%


So silly.... why have a Min Wage if your not gonna raise it in 15 years

[mwillman]

Liberals don't seem to understand poverty or it's causes...You can't cure poverty with government givaways and handouts.

People must stress the importance of education to their children and instill in them a sense of self-reliance and a good work ethic.

People are responsible for their own situations...There will always be a segment of society that will struggle through life...It is unavoidable.

I have known severely handicapped people who have refused to give up and are very independent, self-sufficient and productive citizens.

I have known perfectly able people who for one reason or another can not hold a job and constantly blame their failures on everything in the world but themselves.

There is nothing that can or should be done for these people unless of course their friends family or charity organizations wish to feed cloth and house them.

On the other hand if a person is so handicapped or disabled through no fault of their own, I would have no problem with a state or local government program to assist them.

Yes some people get over on the system, I think your numbers are way over blown and I think your judgment on who should and who shouldn't receive aid is suspect but I am for doing every reasonable thing we can to limit abuse and I am for the most efficient system we can create but I am not for giving up nor am I for disavowing the many great strides that have been made over the years just becuase you think the system is corrupt.

[Hog Trash]

Yes some people get over on the system, I think your numbers are way over blown and I think your judgment on who should and who shouldn't receive aid is suspect but I am for doing every reasonable thing we can to limit abuse and I am for the most efficient system we can create but I am not for giving up nor am I for disavowing the many great strides that have been made over the years just becuase you think the system is corrupt.I'm sorry, I must of missed those "great strides".

What I caught was the waste and corruption of taxpayer dollars.

[Zebulon0351]

Poor Zeb and his liberal Robin Hoods are going to save the working poor people with a 10 dollar an hour minimum wage.

A riddle for anyone who may Know the answer!...Do liberals become stupid people or do stupid people become liberals?

That is the 2nd stupidest post you have posted so far. We propose letting the poor contribute to feeding themselves. Are you deaf or just to damn dumb to understand that?

Sounds like a perfect proposal if there were a magic switch to bring the motivation to these individuals. And even if there was a magic switch.. what are your proposals to better the situation of those individuals in poverty who actually do step up to better themselves?

with the piss-poor education some of our kids are being brought up in, and the culture of their home environment that does not stress the importance of making an honest living and striving to eventually move out of that environment, many of these kids are hopeless to ever see anything beyond a 20 block radius of their house.

We can keep bitching about how the responsibility lies with the individual, and leave it to the individual to take care of their kids.. but if the individual doesn't have the skills or the knowledge on how to properly raise these kids.. then their kids will become the very individuals you will be bitching about 20 years from now.

And you are leaving out the working poor: The single mom who works 60+ hours a week just to keep a roof over her kids' heads and food on the table. But for some reason you see raising the minimum wage as a bad idea.. so this single mom keeps working for her $7.25 an hour making $435 a week. (no overtime since she works two or three different jobs)

So the $1740 this lady makes a month goes to:
rent (lets say $600 a month)
utilities: low guesstimate of $200
Food: $400
Gas: at current prices of an average of $2.46.. with an average 15 gallon tank and 3 fill ups a month: $110.00

Now we are up to 1,310

Lets add on $150.00 for car insurance: 1,460

$100 for childcare: $1,560

This doesn't count the raised cost of education once the kids get into elementary and highschool.

This doesn't count the cost of a family emergency...

This doesn't count the cost replacing a dropped transmission...

This doesn't count the cost of extra-curricular activities for the children...

But no.. you don't agree with raising the minimum wage. You say that this lady is lazy and should pay for her own healthcare...

You take such a strong stance against abortion.. but once she has the kid you leave the responsibility of taking care of the kid on her.. you don't want to sacrifice a dime of your money to take care of the very kid you "saved."

So continue to neglect the poor. Continue to place blanket statements on them. Continue refusing to give them a chance to succeed in life. And they will continue to live in poverty.

How about restructuring the entire education system.. lets test the quality of education rather than the ability of the teachers to teach the kids a test. Lets hold the school systems accountable for graduating students who are on a 6th grade reading and math level.

How about implementing strong community programs.. show the kids the is life beyond the confides of the ghetto.

How about creating community projects to give some of those unemployed get actual jobs to clean up their very communities? Some might call them pork projects.. others will call it giving people a chance to succeed.

How about creating more mixed-income housing that does not place people in the ghetto's just to be forgotten about?

How about restructuring the welfare system that holds people accountable and forces them to reach pre-determined goals, and if the goals aren't met, their kids are taken away from them?

How about we quit ignoring the issue expecting it to fix itself? It won't fix itself..

[Hog Trash]

Sounds like a perfect proposal if there were a magic switch to bring the motivation to these individuals. And even if there was a magic switch.. what are your proposals to better the situation of those individuals in poverty who actually do step up to better themselves?

with the piss-poor education some of our kids are being brought up in, and the culture of their home environment that does not stress the importance of making an honest living and striving to eventually move out of that environment, many of these kids are hopeless to ever see anything beyond a 20 block radius of their house.

We can keep bitching about how the responsibility lies with the individual, and leave it to the individual to take care of their kids.. but if the individual doesn't have the skills or the knowledge on how to properly raise these kids.. then their kids will become the very individuals you will be bitching about 20 years from now.

And you are leaving out the working poor: The single mom who works 60+ hours a week just to keep a roof over her kids' heads and food on the table. But for some reason you see raising the minimum wage as a bad idea.. so this single mom keeps working for her $7.25 an hour making $435 a week. (no overtime since she works two or three different jobs)

So the $1740 this lady makes a month goes to:
rent (lets say $600 a month)
utilities: low guesstimate of $200
Food: $400
Gas: at current prices of an average of $2.46.. with an average 15 gallon tank and 3 fill ups a month: $110.00

Now we are up to 1,310

Lets add on $150.00 for car insurance: 1,460

$100 for childcare: $1,560

This doesn't count the raised cost of education once the kids get into elementary and highschool.

This doesn't count the cost of a family emergency...

This doesn't count the cost replacing a dropped transmission...

This doesn't count the cost of extra-curricular activities for the children...

But no.. you don't agree with raising the minimum wage. You say that this lady is lazy and should pay for her own healthcare...

You take such a strong stance against abortion.. but once she has the kid you leave the responsibility of taking care of the kid on her.. you don't want to sacrifice a dime of your money to take care of the very kid you "saved."

So continue to neglect the poor. Continue to place blanket statements on them. Continue refusing to give them a chance to succeed in life. And they will continue to live in poverty.

How about restructuring the entire education system.. lets test the quality of education rather than the ability of the teachers to teach the kids a test. Lets hold the school systems accountable for graduating students who are on a 6th grade reading and math level.

How about implementing strong community programs.. show the kids the is life beyond the confides of the ghetto.

How about creating community projects to give some of those unemployed get actual jobs to clean up their very communities? Some might call them pork projects.. others will call it giving people a chance to succeed.

How about creating more mixed-income housing that does not place people in the ghetto's just to be forgotten about?

How about restructuring the welfare system that holds people accountable and forces them to reach pre-determined goals, and if the goals aren't met, their kids are taken away from them?

How about we quit ignoring the issue expecting it to fix itself? It won't fix itself..I never bothered reading anything after your second paragraph....From this it was obvious that you're a hopeless case Zeb.

I realized immediately that you know absolutely nothing about this subject except for the liberal propaganda that you have been spoon fed your entire life.

[Zebulon0351]

I never bothered reading anything after your second paragraph....From this it was obvious that you're a hopeless case Zeb.

I realized immediately that you know absolutely nothing about this subject except for the liberal propaganda that you have been spoon fed your entire life.

Well, you admit you ignored everything after the second paragraph.. that's on brother.. not me

[Hog Trash]

Well, you admit you ignored everything after the second paragraph.. that's on brother.. not meWhy does someone have a child they can't afford?

Where is the child's father and why ain't he paying?

Did the mother tell who the father is or is she protecting him from his responsibilities like many do?

Why does a single mom have a child in the first place?

Why do single moms keep having children when they can't afford the first one?

I have just scratched the surface of questions that hard working taxpayers will ask.

They are struggling to raise their own families and are made to give their hard earned money to these irresponsible people.

You do not yet have a family but are volunteering other people's money who do have children that need the money they earn.

Wise up boy!...Someday you will probably have a family and will be angry when some stupid liberal peckerwood is voting your earnings away.

[Zebulon0351]

Broad-stroked brush..
Blanket statements...

Traditional values

Morality....

[kres24GT]

It amazes me we allow government to tell us how much we can work for.

[kres24GT]

If I am willing to work for 35 cents an hour and someone is willing to pay me 35 cents an hour, what business is it of government?

[bairdi]

If I am willing to work for 35 cents an hour and someone is willing to pay me 35 cents an hour, what business is it of government?
It amazes me that someone would advocate the return to sweatshops. Maybe you can rail on about not allowing child labor in your next missive.

[kres24GT]

It amazes me that someone would advocate the return to sweatshops. Maybe you can rail on about not allowing child labor in your next missive.

I advocate freedom. I'd starve to death before I worked for 35 cents an hour, however if I am willing, I should be allowed to,it is no business of government.

[bairdi]

I advocate freedom. I'd starve to death before I worked for 35 cents an hour, however if I am willing, I should be allowed to,it is no business of government.
Certainly it's our business. We, as a society, have decided so and we, as government, have written that decision into law. Freedom doesn't mean that one person can exploit another for private gain.

[xav8terx]

It seems in this day and age, people are wanting others to be accountable for them, rather than themselves. There is a serious lack of responsibility. Too many people reaching for a handout and most of them have no humility and believe it's owed to them. They are more than delighted to sit on their backsides wastin' away the day, while the rest of us get out and work at anything we can get. And then they reach for our checks.....

In fact, many are of the mindset that they are just too damn awesome and it's far beneith them to get a job at a fast food restaurant. In an age where jobs are becoming harder to find, I would think, any job is better than no job....

But alas, freeloaders don't think like that. All they do is consume, consume, consume and take, take, take and never giving anything back....


What the fuck does that have to do with raising the minimum wage? If you work, you pay taxes...how are they not contributing genius? How are you paying their way? How are they asking for a hand out when fuckin milk is $3+ in some areas? What the fuck is wrong with you people? You hate poor people fine, we get that you have no heart, but don’t piss and moan about them getting paid a little more. That is not a hand out no matter how mad it may make you.

[xav8terx]

Poor Zeb and his liberal Robin Hoods are going to save the working poor people with a 10 dollar an hour minimum wage.

A riddle for anyone who may Know the answer!...Do liberals become stupid people or do stupid people become liberals?


You people are something else. You come here everyday bitching about the poor yet when something is thrown their way to help them out you piss and moan some more. You must really hate your life or something...I guess I would too if I was a drunk failure.

[MintJulep]

but don’t piss and moan about them getting paid a little more. That is not a hand out no matter how mad it may make you.Send them your check then, but keep your hands off of my wallet. It's not up to you to tell me what to do with the money I earn.

[kres24GT]

Certainly it's our business. We, as a society, have decided so and we, as government, have written that decision into law. Freedom doesn't mean that one person can exploit another for private gain.


LMAO, no one is advocating forcing people to work for them, only when people do of their own free will. It amuses me how foreign the concept of freedom is to you.

LMAO @ we as a "society". We as a "society' deemed it was OK to enslave black people. I guess that was OK.

[xav8terx]

Send them your check then, but keep your hands off of my wallet. It's not up to you to tell me what to do with the money I earn.

They are earning it you ignorant motherfucker!! How are you giving your check...you aint givin shit..never have, never will so quit pretending that is what is going on...no matter how mad it makes you, you are not losing anything by them raising the minimum...

[MintJulep]

They are earning it you ignorant motherfucker!! How are you giving your check...you aint givin shit..never have, never will so quit pretending that is what is going on...no matter how mad it makes you, you are not losing anything by them raising the minimum...Okay, I wasn't talking about the minimum wage but the other lazy govt abusers. Raising the minimum wage will hurt the middle class and business owners. Our economy is already screwed anyway so this will only augment it. Min wage is for high schoolers. If you want to get paid more, acquire skills you can market to an employer. It isn't my fault if someone partied at the beach until age 30 while others were working or going to school.

[kres24GT]

If you are over 16 and make minimum wage you should kill yourself, seriously. I know retarded people who make more than minimum wage.

[xav8terx]

If you are over 16 and make minimum wage you should kill yourself, seriously. I know retarded people who make more than minimum wage.


So the unemployment rate is outstanding now is it? There are plenty of jobs to pick from? People are not losing their jobs anymore?...Great job Obama!!!

[kres24GT]

So the unemployment rate is outstanding now is it? There are plenty of jobs to pick from? People are not losing their jobs anymore?...Great job Obama!!!

We just hired more people at my company.

[xav8terx]

We just hired more people at my company.


Thats awesome...how many?

[Independent Harry]

Close off the borders, ship illegals home. Force these people that don't want to work to at least pick oranges, cut tobacco, taker general labor jobs. If they are on the government check, they work it off either on road projects or state highway crews.

I agree with that...people who are not working should be doing something to pull there weight.

[Mr. Blue]

This thread helps to illustrate some fundamental problems with America and how people view the best course of action.

Here's my take on it. I'm all for increasing the minimum wage, in fact, I'm willing to say increase it even further. I would rather have people work for a living and be able to provide for themselves then having to look towards the government to help them out. That means, increase the minimum wage, find ways to reduce the cost of healthcare to make it affordable, and allow people to do on their own. Take pride in the fact that they work, they cover their bills, they make good in the world without feeling like a charity case or needing government assistance.

How do you offset the expense to employers? I'm all for tax cuts for businesses, let them offset the cost of an increased minimum wage by easing up on the tax burden. Find ways to make it profitable for companies to set up shop here rather than abroad.

If we have a solid minimum wage, where people could do for themselves, would we really need universal healthcare? Would we need welfare? Maybe for select cases where it was impossible for the person to work, but it wouldn't be a behemoth program that covers everyone with a pulse.

The American work ethic needs to be reborn again. People should take a pride in their work, they should be proud that they're doing on their own, and it's wrong how we as a country discourage this type of work ethic. A quick example, "Do you want fries with that?" I believe Robin Williams made that joke and it kind of caught on as a person working in a fast food place should be disparaged for working there.

No, they shouldn't, they're earning a living, they're doing what they can to get by, and they shouldn't feel ashamed because they took some "undesirable" job. What's more shameful is the fact that a person without a job and in need of money would rather not work then take that job.

So, increase the minimum wage, get Americans working again, get them to take pride in the fact that they earn the money to butter their bread. There's ways to make this happen and I want a nation of people working hard to pay their own way.

[kres24GT]

Thats awesome...how many?


3 or 4 here at the corporate office. A few more to manage new customers we've landed. No one is making minimum wage or close to it either.

[mwillman]

Nice kres now we just need to get the 30 million other unemployed working and we wont have to worry about helping the poor. Ow wait a large part of the poor in this nation do work they just make so little that they can't afford to pay for necessities. If only there was a way to insure that people that are working make enough to survive.

Oh thats right a minimum wage might just help all those poor people that work 2 jobs and can't afford to feed and house their families.

[doctordog]

Nice kres now we just need to get the 30 million other unemployed working and we wont have to worry about helping the poor. Ow wait a large part of the poor in this nation do work they just make so little that they can't afford to pay for necessities. If only there was a way to insure that people that are working make enough to survive.

Oh thats right a minimum wage might just help all those poor people that work 2 jobs and can't afford to feed and house their families.

That is what happens when you live in a state with inflated living expenses such as California. For CHrist sake you have a port so supplies should be less for people in California than people in the Midwest. Your state goverment is overflowing with positions that do nothing but hand out money. Your post above about 2 jobs and still can't support a family says many many things:

1. your cost of living is ridiculously inflated
2. Their priorities are out of line
3. They aren't planning their families to meet income levels.

[GetAClue]

Minimum wage is nothing but an artificial driver of inflation. It takes something (an hour of time spent by an employee) and gives it more value today than it had yesterday. Did he/she suddenly become more productive? Why did he/she deserve a raise in pay?

All it does is raise the rate of inflation and devalue the dollar. If a product cost $5 yesterday and today cost $6, would you feel you were getting something extra today? No, you would be upset that for some reason today it costs more money. What it really means is that the value of your dollar just decreased by 20%.

But like all gestures by the government designed to help a certain segment of society, one needs to examine the un-intended consequences of this action. Let’s take a look at your typical fast food restaurant to see how this REALLY affects our beloved minimum wage worker. The restaurant employees many minimum wage workers and some that are paid slightly more. These other higher paid positions are meant for those that have excelled in lower paying jobs and those that management feels are able to take on more responsibility.

Now when the minimum wage is increased, not only do the wages of the lowest paid workers have to be raised, but those other higher paying jobs need to have the wage rate increased as to maintain a higher level as incentive to continue with the increase in responsibility. And the wage increase just continues up the chain.

What if this were a larger company with many different pay scales based on responsibility and skill levels? How many levels of pay need to be increased to accommodate the minimum wage hike?

Then you need to look at other factors. Some places have to pay their entry level employees a rate somewhat higher than the minimum wage just to attract workers due to the physical nature of the work. All of the wages in these places will have to increase also just too keep their workforce from leaving and going to work at McDonalds for the same pay with less labor.

So what happens when everyone raises their wage costs? They will either need to increase their prices to cover the wage increase or find ways to cut their costs. Here in Ohio, the state voted in a state minimum wage a year or so ago. The day in went into effect, EVERY fast food joint in town raised the prices on their menu’s. I asked a manager at one place about the price hike and he stated it was due to the minimum wage hike.

So now we get to the unintended consequences of this. If you are a minimum wage earner, the first worry is “Will I be able to keep my job?” Many workers will be let go as companies look to maintain their costs. They will do away with some positions that they feel they can cover with the other remaining people.

However, the next thing a minimum wage worker will face is something that each of us will face. The cost of goods and services will increase as well with the rise in inflation that will inevitably result. And as I have demonstrated, companies will need to cover an increase in MANY wage level jobs other than just the minimum wage positions. This means that the amount of increase to their pricing structure will probably more than offset the amount of increase those minimum wage workers will get. This will put them further behind the curve than they were previously.

But then again, this is exactly where the liberal politicians want them. They need them dependant on the government for their existence so they will continue to vote for them every time they see an opportunity to pass an initiative to “help” the working poor.

[kres24GT]

Nice kres now we just need to get the 30 million other unemployed working and we wont have to worry about helping the poor. Ow wait a large part of the poor in this nation do work they just make so little that they can't afford to pay for necessities. If only there was a way to insure that people that are working make enough to survive.

Oh thats right a minimum wage might just help all those poor people that work 2 jobs and can't afford to feed and house their families.


Wait, wait, wait, who has kids and works for minimum wage? Anyone who does should be put in jail.


As always, you and whoever else are always free to give as much of your money as you want to help poor people pay bills.

[kres24GT]

Retarded people working at MacDonalds make more than minimum wage. If you are making minimum wage and not 16 or retired you should kill yourself. If you are trying to raise kids on minimum wage you should be thrown in jail.

[doctordog]

Minimum wage is nothing but an artificial driver of inflation. It takes something (an hour of time spent by an employee) and gives it more value today than it had yesterday. Did he/she suddenly become more productive? Why did he/she deserve a raise in pay?

All it does is raise the rate of inflation and devalue the dollar. If a product cost $5 yesterday and today cost $6, would you feel you were getting something extra today? No, you would be upset that for some reason today it costs more money. What it really means is that the value of your dollar just decreased by 20%.

But like all gestures by the government designed to help a certain segment of society, one needs to examine the un-intended consequences of this action. Let’s take a look at your typical fast food restaurant to see how this REALLY affects our beloved minimum wage worker. The restaurant employees many minimum wage workers and some that are paid slightly more. These other higher paid positions are meant for those that have excelled in lower paying jobs and those that management feels are able to take on more responsibility.

Now when the minimum wage is increased, not only do the wages of the lowest paid workers have to be raised, but those other higher paying jobs need to have the wage rate increased as to maintain a higher level as incentive to continue with the increase in responsibility. And the wage increase just continues up the chain.

What if this were a larger company with many different pay scales based on responsibility and skill levels? How many levels of pay need to be increased to accommodate the minimum wage hike?

Then you need to look at other factors. Some places have to pay their entry level employees a rate somewhat higher than the minimum wage just to attract workers due to the physical nature of the work. All of the wages in these places will have to increase also just too keep their workforce from leaving and going to work at McDonalds for the same pay with less labor.

So what happens when everyone raises their wage costs? They will either need to increase their prices to cover the wage increase or find ways to cut their costs. Here in Ohio, the state voted in a state minimum wage a year or so ago. The day in went into effect, EVERY fast food joint in town raised the prices on their menu’s. I asked a manager at one place about the price hike and he stated it was due to the minimum wage hike.

So now we get to the unintended consequences of this. If you are a minimum wage earner, the first worry is “Will I be able to keep my job?” Many workers will be let go as companies look to maintain their costs. They will do away with some positions that they feel they can cover with the other remaining people.

However, the next thing a minimum wage worker will face is something that each of us will face. The cost of goods and services will increase as well with the rise in inflation that will inevitably result. And as I have demonstrated, companies will need to cover an increase in MANY wage level jobs other than just the minimum wage positions. This means that the amount of increase to their pricing structure will probably more than offset the amount of increase those minimum wage workers will get. This will put them further behind the curve than they were previously.

But then again, this is exactly where the liberal politicians want them. They need them dependant on the government for their existence so they will continue to vote for them every time they see an opportunity to pass an initiative to “help” the working poor.

Great Post:thumbsup:

[GetAClue]

Great Post:thumbsup:
Thanks. Minimum wage is one of my hot button topics. It is one of the things I would most love to do away with. It does more harm to working people than any single policy ever has. However if UHC and Cap and Tax are passed into law, I will have to change my hot button topics.

[kres24GT]

Thanks. Minimum wage is one of my hot button topics. It is one of the things I would most love to do away with. It does more harm to working people than any single policy ever has. However if UHC and Cap and Tax are passed into law, I will have to change my hot button topics.


Minimum wage is a made up issue to pander to morons and poor people. Why not just make minimum wage 100 bucks an hour? It is amazing how stupid people will make themselves to defend an issue out of party loyalty.

[doctordog]

Thanks. Minimum wage is one of my hot button topics. It is one of the things I would most love to do away with. It does more harm to working people than any single policy ever has. However if UHC and Cap and Tax are passed into law, I will have to change my hot button topics.

Exactly, if cap and trade passes those same people on the left will be crying about their 4 digit energy cost for their households.

[Hog Trash]

You people are something else. You come here everyday bitching about the poor yet when something is thrown their way to help them out you piss and moan some more. You must really hate your life or something...I guess I would too if I was a drunk failure.Common sense should tell that if I truely were a "failure" I would most likely promote the same government handout and giveaway programs that you do.

The fact that I do not support a nanny government should make it obvious to everyone that I do not need big brother to take care of me and my family.

As far as being a "drunk", I only have one thing to say you poor little pathetic liberal...My mind works better in a blackout than yours does at peak performance.

[mwillman]

Every time someone like you Hog trash starts quoting common sense
I know that's code for they don't know anything about whats really going on so they keep jumping to tried and true streotype's so that they will not feel like they should bother to look for any real, maybe uncomfortable, truths.

No your common sense is like religion based on myth and fairy tale and as such really should be in a class on paleolithic magic, not in a debate about modern political machinations.

[Bill Cosby]

Minimum wage is a made up issue to pander to morons and poor people. Why not just make minimum wage 100 bucks an hour? It is amazing how stupid people will make themselves to defend an issue out of party loyalty.

I wish I had a hundred bucks for every time I have heard that "why not make it 100 bucks" line............:lmao2: :lmao2:

We do not control the means of production or control the supply of labor.. I see that puts us @ a distinct disadvantage.. ( I agree that raising the min is only a temp relief for some)

I know many of you proud capitalist feel you are getting what you deserve & all that but if they could they would bring ppl from China or India & pay them half what your get for working 50% more hours...... Those ppl would be trampling each other for the opportunity & you know it...:thumbsup:

There are lots of ppl I know that have had that rude awakening lately.....

Hopefully no one here will find that out the hardway......

[Tommy]

Retarded people working at MacDonalds make more than minimum wage. If you are making minimum wage and not 16 or retired you should kill yourself. If you are trying to raise kids on minimum wage you should be thrown in jail.

I guess the retired people should be able to get by on the 625.00 a month they get from social security so why would they need to make more then 7 bucks an hour

but remember republicans fought Social security in 1935
and they fought medicare also

[Hog Trash]

Every time someone like you Hog trash starts quoting common sense
I know that's code for they don't know anything about whats really going on so they keep jumping to tried and true streotype's so that they will not feel like they should bother to look for any real, maybe uncomfortable, truths.

No your common sense is like religion based on myth and fairy tale and as such really should be in a class on paleolithic magic, not in a debate about modern political machinations.Common sense is the enemy of liberalism.

[Bill Cosby]

Common sense is the enemy of liberalism.

Mark Twain said common sense aint so common....... I think he had a point..:thumbsup:

[kres24GT]

I guess the retired people should be able to get by on the 625.00 a month they get from social security so why would they need to make more then 7 bucks an hour

but remember republicans fought Social security in 1935
and they fought medicare also


Some retired people actually saved for their own retirement and didn't expect the government to do it for them, and just want a job a few hours a week and are willing to do it for next to nothing. They should be free to work for a buck an hour if they so choose.

Hopefully one day the illegal and unconstitutional Social Security scheme will go away and people can keep their money and invest it as they see fit for their own retirement. But that has nothing to do with minimum wage.

[kres24GT]

I wish I had a hundred bucks for every time I have heard that "why not make it 100 bucks" line............:lmao2: :lmao2:

We do not control the means of production or control the supply of labor.. I see that puts us @ a distinct disadvantage.. ( I agree that raising the min is only a temp relief for some)

I know many of you proud capitalist feel you are getting what you deserve & all that but if they could they would bring ppl from China or India & pay them half what your get for working 50% more hours...... Those ppl would be trampling each other for the opportunity & you know it...:thumbsup:

There are lots of ppl I know that have had that rude awakening lately.....

Hopefully no one here will find that out the hardway......


What someone agrees to work for is no business of the government. If I choose to work for 3 bucks an hour, I should be free to do so. It really doesn't come down to any more than that. When 12 year old Johnny across the street wants to cut your lawn for 12 bucks and it takes him 2 hours are you going to report him for working for less than minimum wage? If a friend agrees to help you move in exchange for some pizza and a six pack, will your report him for working for less than minimum wage?

The "100 bucks an hour" shows the absurdity of minimum wage homers claiming that we are paying people a decent wage. That is of course not the case. Minimum wage is about pandering. Only about 2% of workers make minimum wage (may have increased with the new standards) and as I said even retarded people are able to get jobs that pay more than minimum wage.

[xav8terx]

Liberals don't seem to understand poverty or it's causes...You can't cure poverty with government givaways and handouts.

People must stress the importance of education to their children and instill in them a sense of self-reliance and a good work ethic.

People are responsible for their own situations...There will always be a segment of society that will struggle through life...It is unavoidable.

I have known severely handicapped people who have refused to give up and are very independent, self-sufficient and productive citizens.

I have known perfectly able people who for one reason or another can not hold a job and constantly blame their failures on everything in the world but themselves.

There is nothing that can or should be done for these people unless of course their friends family or charity organizations wish to feed cloth and house them.

On the other hand if a person is so handicapped or disabled through no fault of their own, I would have no problem with a state or local government program to assist them.


I know this may be hard for your drunk ass to understand but lets try this again...YOU or the rest of your racists, anti-American friends are not handing anyone shit. In fact how the fuck do you expect to help people when you can’t even help yourself? It is raising their pay...not GIVING anything to them. They EARN it, just like most people do everyday...try that shit d-bag and you might understand what EARNING means.



Quit hiding behind your phony ass values and just come out with it already. Come to terms with your ways dude!!

[xav8terx]

What someone agrees to work for is no business of the government. If I choose to work for 3 bucks an hour, I should be free to do so. It really doesn't come down to any more than that. When 12 year old Johnny across the street wants to cut your lawn for 12 bucks and it takes him 2 hours are you going to report him for working for less than minimum wage? If a friend agrees to help you move in exchange for some pizza and a six pack, will your report him for working for less than minimum wage?

The "100 bucks an hour" shows the absurdity of minimum wage homers claiming that we are paying people a decent wage. That is of course not the case. Minimum wage is about pandering. Only about 2% of workers make minimum wage (may have increased with the new standards) and as I said even retarded people are able to get jobs that pay more than minimum wage.

I understand your point but everyone has a story and until all these problems are solved then why not keep these minimum wage jobs on par with the rest of the cost of living. I'm waiting for the inflation blame game to start but you must also consider the fact that inflation is always present and the minimum hasn’t been increased since when...so I just cant see how that’s the problem.


Again, how are you supposed to buy a gallon of milk, a gallon of gas, motor oil, some hamburger, buns, tooth paste, shampoo, etc... on $3 an hour? Milk is like $3.29 were I live, gas is $2.39, motor oil is About $2 something depending on brand...how are you going to afford all of this; and not one of these things is living beyond your means...I didn’t even include rent because at $3 an hour you wont be living anywhere other than a friends or family's place.

Government got involved with labor issues when these fuckin corporations, most of you people love so much (not necessarily meaning you, but you know these people lurk around here), took complete advantage of the working folks. Someone had to step in and provide fair wages and safe working conditions. I understand your position on government involvement but this is certainly one area that needs government involvement. If you are expecting these companies to do the right thing you are living in a fantasy world.

[kres24GT]

I understand your point but everyone has a story and until all these problems are solved then why not keep these minimum wage jobs on par with the rest of the cost of living. I'm waiting for the inflation blame game to start but you must also consider the fact that inflation is always present and the minimum hasn’t been increased since when...so I just cant see how that’s the problem.


Again, how are you supposed to buy a gallon of milk, a gallon of gas, motor oil, some hamburger, buns, tooth paste, shampoo, etc... on $3 an hour? Milk is like $3.29 were I live, gas is $2.39, motor oil is About $2 something depending on brand...how are you going to afford all of this; and not one of these things is living beyond your means...I didn’t even include rent because at $3 an hour you wont be living anywhere other than a friends or family's place.

Government got involved with labor issues when these fuckin corporations, most of you people love so much (not necessarily meaning you, but you know these people lurk around here), took complete advantage of the working folks. Someone had to step in and provide fair wages and safe working conditions. I understand your position on government involvement but this is certainly one area that needs government involvement. If you are expecting these companies to do the right thing you are living in a fantasy world.


Well, for one all of those things would cost less. The minimum wage is irrelevant because no one works for it. Only teenagers, retarded people, and retirees work for minimum wage. Yes there are a a few others in there, but it is a very small number. Very few people are willing to work for minimum wage. If millions of Americans worked for minimum wage there might be a point here.


I am not a fan of corporations, that is why I hate Big Government. A high minimum wage is great for corporations, it drives small business, out of business.

In a free market, corporations only get a single dollar from us if we give it to them, in a free market only we are to blame for any corporation becoming too big.

[xav8terx]

Well, for one all of those things would cost less. The minimum wage is irrelevant because no one works for it. Only teenagers, retarded people, and retirees work for minimum wage. Yes there are a a few others in there, but it is a very small number. Very few people are willing to work for minimum wage. If millions of Americans worked for minimum wage there might be a point here.


I am not a fan of corporations, that is why I hate Big Government. A high minimum wage is great for corporations, it drives small business, out of business.

In a free market, corporations only get a single dollar from us if we give it to them, in a free market only we are to blame for any corporation becoming too big.

Ok, i can see your point a little more and i agree with most of that but somethings we do need to have so it's kind of hard not to feed the beast.

[kres24GT]

Ok, i can see your point a little more and i agree with most of that but somethings we do need to have so it's kind of hard not to feed the beast.


In a free market we can start our own companies to provide ourselves with those things. In a Big Government world the cost of compliance with massive regulation is too high, only the biggest companies in the world can afford it.


In a free market if we end up with monopolies and oligopolies, is through our own doing. In a Big Government world, monopolies and oligopolies are inevitable, and we are seeing that now. Only the Wal-marts of the world can afford to huge cost of compliance that Big Government asks all business to adhere to. Everyone else has to go out of business, or sell out to a big boy. Yes we have anti-trust legislation to bust up monopolies, but eventually it will be right back to it. Small business is squashed in a Big Government world.

[GetAClue]

I understand your point but everyone has a story and until all these problems are solved then why not keep these minimum wage jobs on par with the rest of the cost of living. I'm waiting for the inflation blame game to start but you must also consider the fact that inflation is always present and the minimum hasn’t been increased since when...so I just cant see how that’s the problem.


Again, how are you supposed to buy a gallon of milk, a gallon of gas, motor oil, some hamburger, buns, tooth paste, shampoo, etc... on $3 an hour? Milk is like $3.29 were I live, gas is $2.39, motor oil is About $2 something depending on brand...how are you going to afford all of this; and not one of these things is living beyond your means...I didn’t even include rent because at $3 an hour you wont be living anywhere other than a friends or family's place.

Government got involved with labor issues when these fuckin corporations, most of you people love so much (not necessarily meaning you, but you know these people lurk around here), took complete advantage of the working folks. Someone had to step in and provide fair wages and safe working conditions. I understand your position on government involvement but this is certainly one area that needs government involvement. If you are expecting these companies to do the right thing you are living in a fantasy world.
Here is the problem with the liberal mindset. You are making an emotional based argument regardless of the logical facts as they relate to cause and affect. Yes, it would be very difficult to provide for a family working in a minimum wage job. But whether or not it is difficult still does not change the fact that raising the minimum wage does nothing but hurt those it is intended to help.

When my wife and I married many years ago, we both were working jobs that paid considerably more than the minimum wage. However, we both were in agreement that we wanted to improve our financial situation before having children. We waited 5 years before having our first child and were able to begin our family without having the difficulties that you bring up in your post.

The problem is that too many people want everything NOW! They don’t want to work or plan for things, they just wanted handed to them. The reason I made considerably more than minimum wage at the time I married my wife is because I spent the previous 5 years going to college and working numerous jobs to pay for it. I received NO money from my parents for school, so I had to finance the entire thing. I sacrificed then so I would not have to sacrifice now.

However, too many people don’t want to go thru that stage of life. They want it all now and feel that somebody else owes it too them. And in the case of minimum wage, who do they think pays that? Just because the government mandates that companies pay that wage, there is NO government funding sent their way to pay it. As I stated in a previous post, companies are forced to come up with this money by increasing their prices they charge for goods/services or they are forced to reduce their payroll by letting people go.

[kres24GT]

We should never legislate morality, so to say it is immoral to pay someone less than x bucks an hour doesn't hold water.

[xav8terx]

Here is the problem with the liberal mindset. You are making an emotional based argument regardless of the logical facts as they relate to cause and affect. Yes, it would be very difficult to provide for a family working in a minimum wage job. But whether or not it is difficult still does not change the fact that raising the minimum wage does nothing but hurt those it is intended to help.

When my wife and I married many years ago, we both were working jobs that paid considerably more than the minimum wage. However, we both were in agreement that we wanted to improve our financial situation before having children. We waited 5 years before having our first child and were able to begin our family without having the difficulties that you bring up in your post.

The problem is that too many people want everything NOW! They don’t want to work or plan for things, they just wanted handed to them. The reason I made considerably more than minimum wage at the time I married my wife is because I spent the previous 5 years going to college and working numerous jobs to pay for it. I received NO money from my parents for school, so I had to finance the entire thing. I sacrificed then so I would not have to sacrifice now.

However, too many people don’t want to go thru that stage of life. They want it all now and feel that somebody else owes it too them. And in the case of minimum wage, who do they think pays that? Just because the government mandates that companies pay that wage, there is NO government funding sent their way to pay it. As I stated in a previous post, companies are forced to come up with this money by increasing their prices they charge for goods/services or they are forced to reduce their payroll by letting people go.


But again, everyone has a story. It's great that everything worked out for you but to say it's the case for everyone is a misleading to say the least. And that is the typical mindset of conservatives...

[xav8terx]

We should never legislate morality, so to say it is immoral to pay someone less than x bucks an hour doesn't hold water.


It is also immoral to have horrible working conditions...to the point of most everyone in your mill burns to death...should that not be legislated as well?? Is it the fault of the worker for being there in the first place? Should these companies continue to rake in huge profits off the back...forget that...the lives of its employees?

[kres24GT]

It is also immoral to have horrible working conditions...to the point of most everyone in your mill burns to death...should that not be legislated as well?? Is it the fault of the worker for being there in the first place? Should these companies continue to rake in huge profits off the back...forget that...the lives of its employees?


Yes, it is the workers fault. The fact so few people make the minimum wage shows that most people have standards for a job, they won't just work for anyone under any circumstances. A company can't make profits if they have no employees.

[GetAClue]

But again, everyone has a story. It's great that everything worked out for you but to say it's the case for everyone is a misleading to say the least. And that is the typical mindset of conservatives...
No, the point is that people need to quit trying to tie their arguments to emotions and concentrate on the logical outcomes of some of these policies. But even if you do want to bring emotions into the picture, think about the long term consequences of these policies. Sure, they help in the short term for SOME of the people affected. But long term, even the ones that manage to keep their minimum wage jobs find that their pay increases will not keep up with the inflation directly related to that increase. In short, they will be further behind after the pay raise than they would have been without it.

The other point that I was making is that minimum wage jobs should not be jobs used to support families. If you are in one of those jobs, you should really consider doing something to get yourself into a higher paying job. Simply wanting the government to give you a raise will do nothing for your situation.

[xav8terx]

No, the point is that people need to quit trying to tie their arguments to emotions and concentrate on the logical outcomes of some of these policies. But even if you do want to bring emotions into the picture, think about the long term consequences of these policies. Sure, they help in the short term for SOME of the people affected. But long term, even the ones that manage to keep their minimum wage jobs find that their pay increases will not keep up with the inflation directly related to that increase. In short, they will be further behind after the pay raise than they would have been without it.

The other point that I was making is that minimum wage jobs should not be jobs used to support families. If you are in one of those jobs, you should really consider doing something to get yourself into a higher paying job. Simply wanting the government to give you a raise will do nothing for your situation.

I agree with what you have stated, I just also understand that there are situations out there that people are in fact trying to fight out of. Sometimes people need a little help and if comes in the way of staying on par with inflation and what not, why not help them out. Obviously it's not a cure but keeping the minimum at $3.00...hell $5.75 (I think that’s what it is now anyway) isn't doing shit for anyone. Raising it doesn’t really hurt anyone. The excuse of raising the price of products and services is just that...an excuse.

[Bill Cosby]

What someone agrees to work for is no business of the government. .

Sure it is......... In a sense it is everyone's business.......

Everyone is for unfettered capitalism till they are the victim of it.. :thumbsup:

Perhaps it benefits you to have the little boys competing to mow your lawn.... Their meager wages spiraling down w/ every desperate bid.

Is that benefiting the ice cream man???

Is that benefiting the women down @ the video game store???

Is America better off w/ a huge middle class or a small one???

Better off w/ a few rich & lots of poor???

Personally I am no longer impressed w/ arguments for the stronger's right to take advantage of the weaker.......

[Bill Cosby]

In a free market if we end up with monopolies and oligopolies, is through our own doing. .

So the divided powerless/weaker is @ fault............lol

@ fault for allowing (as if they had a choice) the stronger to take advantage of them...

The powerful control the system, not the weak......

They make the laws........ Not the weak.........

They benefit from those laws, tax codes etc that they & their friends have written.......

Benevolent:rolleyes: companies like standard oil were broken up for a reason.......

I guess we should just allow the big oil companies to get together @ set what prices suite them. We don't like it we can drive to Mexico & show them who is boss............:lmao2:

[kres24GT]

Sure it is......... In a sense it is everyone's business.......

Everyone is for unfettered capitalism till they are the victim of it.. :thumbsup:

Perhaps it benefits you to have the little boys competing to mow your lawn.... Their meager wages spiraling down w/ every desperate bid.

Is that benefiting the ice cream man???

Is that benefiting the women down @ the video game store???

Is America better off w/ a huge middle class or a small one???

Better off w/ a few rich & lots of poor???

Personally I am no longer impressed w/ arguments for the stronger's right to take advantage of the weaker.......


I am never a fan of the governmetn running someone's life.

Like 2% of people work for minimum wage, if minimum wage were a huge necessity, if all these evil companies were really out to pay everyone as little as they can, a lot more people would be making 7 bucks an hour.

[GetAClue]

I agree with what you have stated, I just also understand that there are situations out there that people are in fact trying to fight out of. Sometimes people need a little help and if comes in the way of staying on par with inflation and what not, why not help them out. Obviously it's not a cure but keeping the minimum at $3.00...hell $5.75 (I think that’s what it is now anyway) isn't doing shit for anyone. Raising it doesn’t really hurt anyone. The excuse of raising the price of products and services is just that...an excuse.
I beg to differ, I believe it does. It hurts the employer and the employee in the long run. The only one that benefits from a minimum wage increase is the politician that will use it as a campaign tool to pander for yet more votes.

[bairdi]

I beg to differ, I believe it does. It hurts the employer and the employee in the long run. The only one that benefits from a minimum wage increase is the politician that will use it as a campaign tool to pander for yet more votes.
I believe you would be very hard pressed to show how each of the increases of minimum wage since 1938 have hurt employers and employees in the long run. History sort of shoots a hole in your argument.

[GetAClue]

I believe you would be very hard pressed to show how each of the increases of minimum wage since 1938 have hurt employers and employees in the long run. History sort of shoots a hole in your argument.
I have already explained this here. http://www.dcjunkies.com/showpost.php?p=115780&postcount=66

[Bill Cosby]

I am never a fan of the governmetn running someone's life.

Like 2% of people work for minimum wage, if minimum wage were a huge necessity, if all these evil companies were really out to pay everyone as little as they can, a lot more people would be making 7 bucks an hour.

I am not for the gov running someone's live either. No more than I am for some company running someone's life.........:thumbsup:

IMO the gov does have role to play here. The rules & laws passed after the "last great" crash had a place.. DO you not agree??

I am not against capitalism, I am just not or unfettered capitalism........

I see a need for laws, not to hamper their ability to make a profit but rather protect us from them...

They have money. They have power-- They have influence. & we got what?? Squat!!!! Don't sound to fair of a fight to me....

[GetAClue]

I am not for the gov running someone's live either. No more than I am for some company running someone's life.........:thumbsup:

IMO the gov does have role to play here. The rules & laws passed after the "last great" crash had a place.. DO you not agree??

I am not against capitalism, I am just not or unfettered capitalism........

I see a need for laws, not to hamper their ability to make a profit but rather protect us from them...

They have money. They have power-- They have influence. & we got what?? Squat!!!! Don't sound to fair of a fight to me....
There is a major difference between a company running your life and government. You have the freedom as to whether or not to let a company run your life. However when the government begins doing it, you are at their mercy. At that point you have lost some of your freedoms.

I agree with we need laws in this country to prevent one group of people from taking from another group of people without their consent. I also believe that we have such laws in place. The problem is that we need to enforce the laws we have. But to circumvent this action to the government does nothing but change which group of people is doing the screwing.

[Bill Cosby]

There is a major difference between a company running your life and government. You have the freedom as to whether or not to let a company run your life. However when the government begins doing it, you are at their mercy. At that point you have lost some of your freedoms.

I agree with we need laws in this country to prevent one group of people from taking from another group of people without their consent. I also believe that we have such laws in place. The problem is that we need to enforce the laws we have. But to circumvent this action to the government does nothing but change which group of people is doing the screwing.



there is a major difference between a company running your life and government. You have the freedom as to whether or not to let a company run your life.

Not really........ If you hate your job & you need the heathcare & got no other options- That doesn't sound to free to me???? Sounds a lot like I am @ their mercy to me!!!!!:(

The problem is that we need to enforce the laws we have. But to circumvent this action to the government does nothing but change which group of people is doing the screwing

Well I would agree to a point........ RIght now the big boyZ are doing all the screwing... (of us) It needs to swing back the other way for a while IMHO..

[ROdger Right]

The only way that will be acomplished bc is for people to pick up their guns, for that is the only liberty you shall ever know in this America.

And being forced into paying into a system is what? A better option lololol

[Bill Cosby]

The only way that will be acomplished bc is for people to pick up their guns, for that is the only liberty you shall ever know in this America.

And being forced into paying into a system is what? A better option lololol

Well my friend hopefully that is not the only option......

[GetAClue]

Not really........ If you hate your job & you need the heathcare & got no other options- That doesn't sound to free to me???? Sounds a lot like I am @ their mercy to me!!!!!:(
Only if you let it. You still have the option of finding different employment or starting your oun enterprise. Either way, you are free to make your own decisions. But if the government becomes involved, the only recourse is to leave the country.


Well I would agree to a point........ RIght now the big boyZ are doing all the screwing... (of us) It needs to swing back the other way for a while IMHO..
That may be, but voting to give the government the authority to stick it to you even more than they do now is permanent. Show me ANY government program that once started, died out when it’s time had come. That is not the nature of government. Government exists to exist. At least with companies, the market determines their longevity. The guys that made buggy whips were put out of business by the automobile.

But if it had been government run, we would still be supporting a dead industry with our tax dollars. But more likely, we would not have seen an automobile; we would still be transported by horse power.

[Bill Cosby]

Only if you let it. You still have the option of finding different employment or starting your oun enterprise. Either way, you are free to make your own decisions. But if the government becomes involved, the only recourse is to leave the country.


That may be, but voting to give the government the authority to stick it to you even more than they do now is permanent. Show me ANY government program that once started, died out when it’s time had come. That is not the nature of government. Government exists to exist. At least with companies, the market determines their longevity. The guys that made buggy whips were put out of business by the automobile.

But if it had been government run, we would still be supporting a dead industry with our tax dollars. But more likely, we would not have seen an automobile; we would still be transported by horse power.

Only if you let it. You still have the option of finding different employment or starting your oun enterprise


Sorry but I disagree. Not everyone has the resources to do that.... Just look @ the ppl out of work........ Also if you need that med benefits & you or your family have issues??? You walk & lose that?? Preexisting conditions?? :talktothehand:



But if it had been government run, we would still be supporting a dead industry with our tax dollars

Can you prove that?? NO cause it is just your opinion, which you are more than welcome to........

There is a place for business as well as a place for gov. Both have upside & some down...........

[doctordog]

Sorry but I disagree. Not everyone has the resources to do that.... Just look @ the ppl out of work........ Also if you need that med benefits & you or your family have issues??? You walk & lose that?? Preexisting conditions?? :talktothehand:




Can you prove that?? NO cause it is just your opinion, which you are more than welcome to........

There is a place for business as well as a place for gov. Both have upside & some down...........

It is not even close to hopeless yet Bill, there is work out there for those that want it. My son changed jobs last month, I have been offered two jobs in the past 6 months. The jobs are there if you are actually willing to put in some effort.

[Bill Cosby]

It is not even close to hopeless yet Bill, there is work out there for those that want it. My son changed jobs last month, I have been offered two jobs in the past 6 months. The jobs are there if you are actually willing to put in some effort.

So the son of a legend can find work so there is hope for the rest of us??? :lmao2:

Well I am happy for your son & the opportunities offered to you......... Not sure how many Americans are out of work exactly.......... But the roles are added to in bunches of 100,000's........... Now that sounds like a lot to me........ I guess unless you're in China or India..........

Your personal experience is not reflective of the general employments/unemployment situation out there.... & I think you know that..

The big bad government... vs The big bad employers......

They got us by the balls...........

[Zebulon0351]

It is not even close to hopeless yet Bill, there is work out there for those that want it. My son changed jobs last month, I have been offered two jobs in the past 6 months. The jobs are there if you are actually willing to put in some effort.

I love it how you always prove your point starting with "one of my friends/son/daughter/coworker/etc...."

Its awesome you can pull up personal experiences.. but unfortunately its not the same across the board.

[doctordog]

I love it how you always prove your point starting with "one of my friends/son/daughter/coworker/etc...."

Its awesome you can pull up personal experiences.. but unfortunately its not the same across the board.

What can I say Zeb, some us have drive, determination, and heart and then there is people like you.:thumbsup:

[GetAClue]

What can I say Zeb, some us have drive, determination, and heart and then there is people like you.:thumbsup:
Give Zeb a break. He is a combat vet who it sounds like is trying to find his way in the private sector. As he matures and gains wisdom, after a few years he will begin to understand the views of conservatives. He will not admit to it yet, but given time he will come to understand.

[mwillman]

Give Zeb a break. He is a combat vet who it sounds like is trying to find his way in the private sector. As he matures and gains wisdom, after a few years he will begin to understand the views of conservatives. He will not admit to it yet, but given time he will come to understand.


And you call me condescending, Maybe he doesn't like conservative values, maybe he thinks conservatives need medical help not political support.

Maybe you will wake up when your near death and realize what a serious prick you have been all your life.

I doubt it but anything is possible.

[doctordog]

Give Zeb a break. He is a combat vet who it sounds like is trying to find his way in the private sector. As he matures and gains wisdom, after a few years he will begin to understand the views of conservatives. He will not admit to it yet, but given time he will come to understand.

By golly you are right, I was just like him when I was 20 something and full of piss and vinegar. Now I realize how immature and stupid I really was. He will be one us one day. His only other option is to be like Willy.:lmao2:

[mwillman]

No you were not like him, you road the little yellow bus to school when you were twenty it is a good thing they gave you an extra 5 years to graduate.

What you are is a dumb ass and that is all you will ever be.

[Smurf-Herder]

And you call me condescending, Maybe he doesn't like conservative values, maybe he thinks conservatives need medical help not political support.

Maybe you will wake up when your near death and realize what a serious prick you have been all your life.

I doubt it but anything is possible.

Prick is a sexual slur.

That's a warning, under Moby's rules.

[doctordog]

No you were not like him, you road the little yellow bus to school when you were twenty it is a good thing they gave you an extra 5 years to graduate.

What you are is a dumb ass and that is all you will ever be.

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

Hey kid, when did mom buy you that laptop?

[mwillman]

Actually I built my computer from scratch.
Its a water cooled power house.

http://photos.dangerden.com/photos/472996371_PfQi7-L.jpg

How do you get internet when you obviously live so far from civilization.

[mwillman]

Prick is a sexual slur.

That's a warning, under Moby's rules.

No prick is what a rose thorn does to your finger.

If your going to enforce rules you should at least speak the language


prick
  /prɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prik] Show IPA
Use prick in a Sentence
–noun
1. a puncture made by a needle, thorn, or the like.
2. a sharp point; prickle.
3. the act of pricking: the prick of a needle.
4. the state or sensation of being pricked.
5. a sharp pain caused by or as if by being pricked; twinge.
6. the pointed end of a prickspur.
7. Slang: Vulgar.
a. penis.
b. an obnoxious or contemptible person.
8. Archaic. a goad for oxen.
9. Obsolete. a small or minute mark, a dot, or a point.
10. Obsolete. any pointed instrument or weapon.
–verb (used with object)
11. to pierce with a sharp point; puncture.
12. to affect with sharp pain, as from piercing.
13. to cause sharp mental pain to; sting, as with remorse, anger, etc.: His conscience pricked him.
14. to urge on with or as if with a goad or spur: My duty pricks me on.
15. to mark (a surface) with pricks or dots in tracing something.
16. to mark or trace (something) on a surface by pricks or dots.
17. to cause to stand erect or point upward (usually fol. by up): The dog pricked his ears at the sound of the bell.
18. Farriery.
a. to lame (a horse) by driving a nail improperly into its hoof.
b. to nick: to prick a horse's tail.
19. to measure (distance, the size of an area, etc.) on a chart with dividers (usually fol. by off).
20. Horticulture. to transplant (a seedling) into a container that provides more room for growth (usually fol. by out or off).
–verb (used without object)
21. to perform the action of piercing or puncturing something.
22. to have a sensation of being pricked.
23. to spur or urge a horse on; ride rapidly.
24. to rise erect or point upward, as the ears of an animal (usually fol. by up).
—Idioms
25. kick against the pricks, to resist incontestable facts or authority; protest uselessly: In appealing the case again, you will just be kicking against the pricks.
26. prick up one's ears, to become very alert; listen attentively: The reporter pricked up his ears at the prospect of a scoop.
Origin:
bef. 1000; (n.) ME prike; OE prica, price dot, point; (v.) ME priken, OE prician; c. D, LG prik point

Related forms:
pricker, noun
prick⋅ing⋅ly, adverb

[Smurf-Herder]

No prick is what a rose thorn does to your finger.

If your going to enforce rules you should at least speak the language

My return is really pointless, if this is the level of debate going on. :doh:

It's a slur when you refer to someone using the word.

[doctordog]

My return is really pointless, if this is the level of debate going on. :doh:

It's a slur when you refer to someone using the word.

I spoke up for you last time willy, this time you are on your own;)

[mwillman]

Yes its like saying you are a thorn in my side or you are a pain in my ass.

Which by the way comes from sitting on something sharp that pricks you.

So to say one is a prick, which by the way I think you are, means they bother you but haven't really drawn any blood.

If you would like to learn more words and how they are used, I recommend you read a book.

[Smurf-Herder]

Yes its like saying you are a thorn in my side or you are a pain in my ass.

Which by the way comes from sitting on something sharp that pricks you.

So to say one is a prick, which by the way I think you are, means they bother you but haven't really drawn any blood.

If you would like to learn more words and how they are used, I recommend you read a book.


So if I call you a dick, I'm referreing to one of Samantha's husbands in Bewitched? :lmao2:

Like fag is slang for a cigarette, and faggot a bundle of sticks?

That doesn't fly here. We all know what you meant.

[doctordog]

So if I call you a dick, I'm referreing to one of Samantha's husbands in Bewitched? :lmao2:

Like fag is slang for a cigarette, and faggot a bundle of sticks?

That doesn't fly here. We all know what you meant.

Willy, here is your new signature line:

Dick sucked on a cigarette and is like a bundle of sticks.

It is perfect for you:D

[mwillman]

I would not consider dick a sexual slur.

If I said you suck dick then it would be a sexual slur but of course I am not saying that.

If I call you a hand does that bother you?

Why should I be bothered by being called an anatomical feature of the human body.

I recognize the insult but its not a sexual slur its just a dumb label that expresses your dislike of another.

[Smurf-Herder]

I would not consider dick a sexual slur.

If I said you suck dick then it would be a sexual slur but of course I am not saying that.

If I call you a hand does that bother you?

Why should I be bothered by being called an anatomical feature of the human body.

I recognize the insult but its not a sexual slur its just a dumb label that expresses your dislike of another.

Ask any woman about the "C" word. That's a body part.

WTF do you think a sexual slur is?

[Smurf-Herder]

If this is the level of moderation the board needs now ..........

build up a portfolio of violations and I'll be back ................ whenever.

[Hog Trash]

Ask any woman about the "C" word. That's a body part.

WTF do you think a sexual slur is?Can I answer that Smurf?....Please-Please-Please! :yay:

[mwillman]

Sexual slurs relate to a persons sexuality or their gender.

Cunt is also not a sexual slur as much as its a very negative slang term for a real bitch. I dont recommend using it unless you don't mind burning a few bridges but again its not a sexual slur its a childish label.

Some might argue that it relates to gender but thats really secondary, you can call a man a cunt and it might have meaning in the context its used.

You really should learn a little discernment.

[Smurf-Herder]

Sexual slurs relate to a persons sexuality or their gender.

Cunt is also not a sexual slur as much as its a very negative slang term for a real bitch. I dont recommend using it unless you don't mind burning a few bridges but again its not a sexual slur its a childish label.

Some might argue that it relates to gender but thats really secondary, you can call a man a cunt and it might have meaning in the context its used.

You really should learn a little discernment.

Look up the definition of slur, you idiot.

[mwillman]

So what calling me an idiot is not a slur.

Whats the rule again you can call me what ever you want but you ban me if I return the favor. Don't act fucking innocent you have insulted, slurred, and debased me on any number of occasions.

So take your fucking hypocrisy and shove it some where you don't consider sexual.

[doctordog]

So what calling me an idiot is not a slur.

Whats the rule again you can call me what ever you want but you ban me if I return the favor. Don't act fucking innocent you have insulted, slurred, and debased me on any number of occasions.

So take your fucking hypocrisy and shove it some where you don't consider sexual.

Damn more crying, boo hoo

520

[Smurf-Herder]

So what calling me an idiot is not a slur.

Whats the rule again you can call me what ever you want but you ban me if I return the favor. Don't act fucking innocent you have insulted, slurred, and debased me on any number of occasions.

So take your fucking hypocrisy and shove it some where you don't consider sexual.

No, I don't dare ban you. Remember, that makes me a partisan hack.

You're a protected species.

[mwillman]

Hey wayer if you have nothing to add then all you are doing is trolling.

I say you are accomplishing nothing but showing that you are a slow witted
Bible belt loser who still dreams the south had won the civil war. I know what kind of person you are and I just pray that some day your type is finally lost to antiquity.

[mwillman]

No, I don't dare ban you. Remember, that makes me a partisan hack.

You're a protected species.

Just like you moderator.
You are a protected species too.

You create all kinds of drama and you are supposed to be some kind of leader.

Pathetic.

[Smurf-Herder]

Just like you moderator.
You are a protected species too.

You create all kinds of drama and you are supposed to be some kind of leader.

Pathetic.

Seems to me you're being the drama queen tonight. :thumbsup:

[mwillman]

It might be true

But all you have to do is stop using my name in your posts and stop insulting me and I will go back to responding to political posts.

You can insult my ideas all you want you can disagree with me all you want but you right wingers dont just do that and as long as you insist on being insulting you will find that I will not take it laying down.

[Smurf-Herder]

It might be true

But all you have to do is stop using my name in your posts and stop insulting me and I will go back to responding to political posts.

You can insult my ideas all you want you can disagree with me all you want but you right wingers dont just do that and as long as you insist on being insulting you will find that I will not take it laying down.

Okay, it's a deal. But I still want a ruling on what constitutes a gender slur - even if it's just for general future reference.

[mwillman]

OK Im taking your word on it and I will stop but If you start up again then all bets are off.

[Smurf-Herder]

OK Im taking your word on it and I will stop but If you start up again then all bets are off.

Now this is a deal. That means it goes both ways, okay?

I'll lay off you, if you lay off me.

But if I have to say anything to you involving what looks like a clear violation of the rules, I will being it to your attention, in a very respectful way. And that means you won't go insulting me, just because I'm trying to do my job.

[Hog Trash]

So what calling me an idiot is not a slur.

Whats the rule again you can call me what ever you want but you ban me if I return the favor. Don't act fucking innocent you have insulted, slurred, and debased me on any number of occasions.

So take your fucking hypocrisy and shove it some where you don't consider sexual.Shut-up stupid!

[doctordog]

Hey wayer if you have nothing to add then all you are doing is trolling.

I say you are accomplishing nothing but showing that you are a slow witted
Bible belt loser who still dreams the south had won the civil war. I know what kind of person you are and I just pray that some day your type is finally lost to antiquity.

boo hoo hoo hoo

521

[mwillman]

Here come the clown twins to share with us all their lovely musings on life.

The southern contingent has stopped playing the banjo and making pig noises long enough to share their common sense with us. I feel so privileged.

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2: