How do we pay for Bush and Obama's dream world?

[kres24GT]

Serious question for those who voted for Bush and Obama and support or supported either, how do we pay for all they want to do?

Seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, no one wants to answer this.

[MintJulep]

Ummm, Bush is no longer President.

[CONFLICTS]

and yet he left us with the check lady

[kres24GT]

Ummm, Bush is no longer President.


He left the check just like Obama will do to his successor. How do we pay for their mess?

[radioguy]

That's a pretty lame way to try and blame Bush for the things Obama is doing to destroy the American economy.

.

[kres24GT]

That's a pretty lame way to try and blame Bush for the things Obama is doing to destroy the American economy.

.


I am blaming both, because are both to blame.

[bairdi]

Serious question for those who voted for Bush and Obama and support or supported either, how do we pay for all they want to do?

Seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, no one wants to answer this.
First: Do what is needed to get the economy back and running in order to increase revenues into our government even if it means more stimulus money. Nothing can be done until the economy is healthy.
Second: End the two costly wars.
Third: Lower the corporate tax rate but also eliminate all the tax loopholes that corporations use to avoid paying taxes, especially off-shore schemes.
Fourth: Go over the budget with a fine tooth comb and start cutting unnecessary spending. Concentrate heavily on waste in the Department of Defense and on foreign aid.
Fifth: Vote every long term Senator and Representative out of office and transfuse the House and Senate with new blood.
Sixth: Prosecute and end corruption in all levels of government.
Seventh: Impose a hefty tax on any money contributed to any politician that is used for the express purpose of lobbying a vote on legislation.
Eighth: Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are here to stay and it's time for conservatives to accept that fact and work in a bipartisan manner to fund and streamline these programs instead of constantly wasting time and money trying to eliminate them.

That's my short list for now.

[kres24GT]

First: Do what is needed to get the economy back and running in order to increase revenues into our government even if it means more stimulus money. Nothing can be done until the economy is healthy.
Second: End the two costly wars.
Third: Lower the corporate tax rate but also eliminate all the tax loopholes that corporations use to avoid paying taxes, especially off-shore schemes.
Fourth: Go over the budget with a fine tooth comb and start cutting unnecessary spending. Concentrate heavily on waste in the Department of Defense and on foreign aid.
Fifth: Vote every long term Senator and Representative out of office and transfuse the House and Senate with new blood.
Sixth: Prosecute and end corruption in all levels of government.
Seventh: Impose a hefty tax on any money contributed to any politician that is used for the express purpose of lobbying a vote on legislation.
Eighth: Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are here to stay and it's time for conservatives to accept that fact and work in a bipartisan manner to fund and streamline these programs instead of constantly wasting time and money trying to eliminate them.

That's my short list for now.


1. This involves spending more money on pork projects that admittedly will take years to produce results, if they do at all, meanwhile the interest on the debt could pay for most of our programs that are soon to be insolvent.
2. Sounds good to me. I would say to end more than that, including the War on Drugs. When will Obama be bringing the troops home? If he isn't going to, let's move on.
3. Corporations own the politicians, eliminating their tax loop holes is about as likely as ending Social Security. Going to a flat tax and eliminating all loopholes is the way to go, put takes away too much power form the government, so won't happen. Next.
4. Again, great, several departments and programs can be eliminated completely. I would like to cut 50-70% from the budget. Definitely can make cuts in defense. Eliminate all corporate and social welfare programs. All pork projects have to go. Department of education, gone. Farm subsidies, gone. Where is the plan to do any of these things? Every plan I see includes spending more, not less.
5. Also a great idea, when it comes down to a 30 years Democrat or voting in a Republican replacement, who are you voting for?
6. LMAO, you don't spend 10 figures to take a job that pays 6 figures, so you can combat corruption. Under the current two party system, this is simply not plausible.
7. See 6. Eliminate lobbying all together is my advice, but not going to happen.
8. All of these programs are colossal disasters ad will soon be fiscally insolvent. The quicker we can get rid of the m the better, the longer they stay, the more money we need to come up with.

Not seeing a whole lot of options here.Seem like right now the answer is to borrow more money. What happens when no one is giving us anymore?

[bairdi]

1. This involves spending more money on pork projects that admittedly will take years to produce results, if they do at all, meanwhile the interest on the debt could pay for most of our programs that are soon to be insolvent.
2. Sounds good to me. I would say to end more than that, including the War on Drugs. When will Obama be bringing the troops home? If he isn't going to, let's move on.
3. Corporations own the politicians, eliminating their tax loop holes is about as likely as ending Social Security. Going to a flat tax and eliminating all loopholes is the way to go, put takes away too much power form the government, so won't happen. Next.
4. Again, great, several departments and programs can be eliminated completely. I would like to cut 50-70% from the budget. Definitely can make cuts in defense. Eliminate all corporate and social welfare programs. All pork projects have to go. Department of education, gone. Farm subsidies, gone. Where is the plan to do any of these things? Every plan I see includes spending more, not less.
5. Also a great idea, when it comes down to a 30 years Democrat or voting in a Republican replacement, who are you voting for?
6. LMAO, you don't spend 10 figures to take a job that pays 6 figures, so you can combat corruption. Under the current two party system, this is simply not plausible.
7. See 6. Eliminate lobbying all together is my advice, but not going to happen.
8. All of these programs are colossal disasters ad will soon be fiscally insolvent. The quicker we can get rid of the m the better, the longer they stay, the more money we need to come up with.

Not seeing a whole lot of options here.Seem like right now the answer is to borrow more money. What happens when no one is giving us anymore?
Sorry, I thought you wanted a legitimate response. I didn't realize you were looking for yet, another useless argument. The only thing I gather from your comments is that nothing can be done so why even suggest anything.

[kres24GT]

Sorry, I thought you wanted a legitimate response. I didn't realize you were looking for yet, another useless argument. The only thing I gather from your comments is that nothing can be done so why even suggest anything.


I am not looking for phony answers. I am asking how are we really going to pay for this?

Cutting spending is not going to happen, corrupt politicians legislating themselves into behaving, is not going to happen. I am asking for real, plausible answers on how we are going to pay for this.


Under the current two party system almost all of your suggestions are just not plausible. GIven the two party system isn't going anywhere, how do we pay for this?

[bairdi]

I am not looking for phony answers. I am asking how are we really going to pay for this?

Cutting spending is not going to happen, corrupt politicians legislating themselves into behaving, is not going to happen. I am asking for real, plausible answers on how we are going to pay for this.


Under the current two party system almost all of your suggestions are just not plausible. GIven the two party system isn't going anywhere, how do we pay for this?
We don't pay for it. We let the country crash, cities collapse, anarchy rein, grab a gun, conservative against liberal, black against white, rich against poor, citizen against soldier, burn it all down and destroy everything in sight. At the end, when we can stand no more misery, those of us left pick up the pieces and start all over from scratch. This is your and hawg's vision. Welcome to it!

[The Professor]

First: Do what is needed to get the economy back and running in order to increase revenues into our government even if it means more stimulus money. Nothing can be done until the economy is healthy.
Second: End the two costly wars.
Third: Lower the corporate tax rate but also eliminate all the tax loopholes that corporations use to avoid paying taxes, especially off-shore schemes.
Fourth: Go over the budget with a fine tooth comb and start cutting unnecessary spending. Concentrate heavily on waste in the Department of Defense and on foreign aid.
Fifth: Vote every long term Senator and Representative out of office and transfuse the House and Senate with new blood.
Sixth: Prosecute and end corruption in all levels of government.
Seventh: Impose a hefty tax on any money contributed to any politician that is used for the express purpose of lobbying a vote on legislation.
Eighth: Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are here to stay and it's time for conservatives to accept that fact and work in a bipartisan manner to fund and streamline these programs instead of constantly wasting time and money trying to eliminate them.

That's my short list for now.

really good post, bairdi

1. 2nd stimulus is non starter, no one trusts pelosi/bigears to do arithmetic, not after the first one, not after cap and trade, not after health care

2. bigears is COMMITTED to afghanistan (it's gonna BLEED him, he has no chance in those mountains on the moon), tell it to bigears

3. i agree with you, bigears doesn't

4. you're dreaming, you're correct but not real, if you're looking for waste check out the schools

5. another pretty dream

6.

7. you never really got back to me on bigears/geithner/dodd working their corrupt butts off to grandfather those AIG BONUSES into plan pelosi to PAYBACK their gigantic campaign contributors---dodd and bigears are #'s 1 and 2 recipients of AIG lucre (sicko?)

8. social security, medicare and medicaid are here to stay---granted

actually, the RANGEL PLAN contemplates CUTS TO MEDICARE AND MEDICAID

OUTrageous

where's YOUR liberal UMBRAGE?

CUTTING M and M?!!!

holy bovine

for decades, sacred cows

to provide a paltry political protection for their expanding presidential problem the party actually contemplates CUTTING MEDICARE AND MEDICAID!!!

this is what so PISSED OFF the governors YESTERDAY

BLUE ones---richardson, gregoire, bredeson, ritter (they're just the ones on record, they were ALL pretty much pissed)

CUTTING M AND M totally outraged elmendorf

when he testified before the GATEKEEPER's cmte on thursday, july 16, the most important day of this young presidency

as you know

nobody's "wasting time and money" trying to eliminate your favorite programs, bairdi

as you know, they are thoroughly INSOLVENT ongoing, due to baby boombers

and other demographics

good, thoughtful post, bairdi

thanks

[The Professor]

schwarzenegger wins battle against tax increases

http://www.californiaprogressreport.com/2009/07/devastating_cut.html

[kres24GT]

We don't pay for it. We let the country crash, cities collapse, anarchy rein, grab a gun, conservative against liberal, black against white, rich against poor, citizen against soldier, burn it all down and destroy everything in sight. At the end, when we can stand no more misery, those of us left pick up the pieces and start all over from scratch. This is your and hawg's vision. Welcome to it!

I asked you to give a legitimate plausible answer for how to pay for it, can you do it or not? Politicians aren't going to impose term limits or end lobbying. Spending isn't going to be cut. These are pipe dreams, within the confines of reality, how do we pay for it, I am asking you.

[The Professor]

why not ask the governator?

LOLOL!

he's pretty post partisan

NO ONE likes him

LOLOLOL!

[nipoleon]

The problem is something you may not have heard of.
It's called " Full Spectrum Dominance ".

The following is an excerpt from a book review by Stephen Lehman as it appeared in " The Market Oracle ".

For over 30 years, F. William Engdahl has been a leading researcher, economist, and analyst of the New World Order with extensive writing to his credit on energy, politics, and economics. He contributes regularly to business and other publications, is a frequent speaker on geopolitical, economic and energy issues, and is a distinguished Research Associate of the Centre for Research on Globalization.

Engdahl's two previous books include "A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" explaining that America's post-WW II dominance rests on two pillars and one commodity - unchallengeable military power and the dollar as the world's reserve currency along with the quest to control global oil and other energy resources.

Engdahl's other book is titled "Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation" on how four Anglo-American agribusiness giants plan world domination by patenting all life forms to force-feed GMO foods on everyone - even though eating them poses serious human health risks.

Engdahl's newest book is reviewed below. Titled "Full Strectrum Dominance: Totalitarian Democracy in the New World Order," it discusses America's grand strategy, first revealed in the 1998 US Space Command document - Vision for 2020. Later released in 2000 as DOD Joint Vision 2020, it called for "full spectrum dominance" over all land, surface and sub-surface sea, air, space, electromagnetic spectrum and information systems with enough overwhelming power to fight and win global wars against any adversary, including with nuclear weapons preemptively.

Other means as well, including propaganda, NGOs and Color Revolutions for regime change, expanding NATO eastward, and "a vast array of psychological and economic warfare techniques" as part of a "Revolution in Military Affairs" discussed below.

September 11, 2001 served as pretext to consolidate power, destroy civil liberties and human rights, and wage permanent wars against invented enemies for global dominance over world markets, resources, and cheap labor - at the expense of democratic freedoms and social justice. Engdahl's book presents a frightening view of the future, arriving much sooner than most think.

After the Soviet Union's dissolution in late 1989, America had a choice. As the sole remaining superpower, it could have worked for a new era of peace and prosperity, ended decades of Cold War tensions, halted the insane arms race, turned swords into plowshares, and diverted hundreds of billions annually from "defense" to "rebuild(ing) civilian infrastructure and repair(ing) impoverished cities."

Instead, Washington, under GHW Bush and his successors, "chose stealth, deception, lies and wars to attempt to control the Eurasian Heartland - its only potential rival as an economic region - by military (political, and economic) force," and by extension planet earth through an agenda later called "full spectrum dominance."

As a result, the Cold War never ended and today rages with over a trillion dollars spent annually on "defense" in all forms even though America has no enemy, nor did it after the Japanese surrendered in August 1945. So the solution was to invent them, and so they were.

Post-Soviet Russia, "The 'new' Cold War assumed various disguises and deceptive tactics until September 11, 2001" changed the game. It let George Bush "declare (a) permanent (Global War on Terror) against an enemy who was everywhere and nowhere, who allegedly threatened the American way of life, justified (police state) laws," and is now destroying our freedoms and futures.

[foxbaron]

Serious question for those who voted for Bush and Obama and support or supported either, how do we pay for all they want to do?

Seems to be the 800 pound gorilla in the room, no one wants to answer this.


We start by replacing everybody in Congress. End pork barrel spending, demand a balanced budget. Eliminate all earmarks. Require Congress to actually read every single bill proposed and the one who introduced it to justify it.

Term limits. Require every member of Congress and every member of the Administration to live under the same laws they pass for us. If it affects us it should affect them.

Eliminate their retirement and health care. Make them get a 401K and pay for their own health insurance.

Take away their perks.

We can't possibly pay for what they want to do but at least we can start to get it under control.

[radioguy]

We start by replacing everybody in Congress. End pork barrel spending, demand a balanced budget. Eliminate all earmarks. Require Congress to actually read every single bill proposed and the one who introduced it to justify it.

Term limits. Require every member of Congress and every member of the Administration to live under the same laws they pass for us. If it affects us it should affect them.

Eliminate their retirement and health care. Make them get a 401K and pay for their own health insurance.

Take away their perks.

We can't possibly pay for what they want to do but at least we can start to get it under control.

That my friend, is a pipe dream.

Even if you replace everyone in congress, the new reps will just do exactly what the old ones did. Congress makes the rules for congress, so what makes you think they will propose legislation that cut's their own throats?

.

[Hog Trash]

I was not happy with the Bush Administration and it's big government, big spending and destructive policies.

Bush really disappointed me when he came out with his pro-amnesty, anti-border protection policies and prosecuting border guards for doing their jobs.

President Bush's big spending and bad policies pales in comparison to the administration now in power...Obama makes George W look like the greatest president in American history.

I will forget the Bush presidency for now and concentrate on the biggest threat and greatest crisis America has ever faced in its 233 years as a nation....Barack Hussein Obama.

[MintJulep]

.Obama makes George W look like the greatest president in American history.

No truer words were ever spoken..........

[doctordog]

No truer words were ever spoken..........

Abraham Lincoln did as much for the country as Obama has so far and I am talking about after Lincoln's last day at the theater.

[Smurf-Herder]

We start by replacing everybody in Congress. End pork barrel spending, demand a balanced budget. Eliminate all earmarks. Require Congress to actually read every single bill proposed and the one who introduced it to justify it.

Term limits. Require every member of Congress and every member of the Administration to live under the same laws they pass for us. If it affects us it should affect them.

Eliminate their retirement and health care. Make them get a 401K and pay for their own health insurance.

Take away their perks.

We can't possibly pay for what they want to do but at least we can start to get it under control.

You need a Revolution for all that.

We're being run by an Oligarchy of the illusion of two parties - luckily one takes the slower track to the destination. But both are still going in the same direction.

You think either side will actually let the people take their power and perks away?

[doctordog]

You need a Revolution for all that.

We're being run by an Oligarchy of the illusion of two parties - luckily one takes the slower track to the destination. But both are still going in the same direction.

You think either side will actually let the people take their power and perks away?

Did you say Revolution?

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[Moby]

In the short term we're going to borrow more money. That's what you do when you need to grow or times are tough. That's also why you pay down debt when times are good.

Obama inherited a $1.2 Trillion spending deficit when he took office. He also inherited massive unemployment, the largest loss of wealth for citizens since WW II and a financial crisis that made S&Ls look like small change.

My hope is that when he leaves office that unemployment will be better then when he started (as all democrat presidents have done except Carter who left it the same). I also hope that he will follow Clinton and leave the spending deficits as much lower then the $1.2 trillion that he inherited.

Then we must hope that America wants to pay down some debt and that they push for balanced budget again. That will probably mean higher taxes and the federal government drilling for oil and not selling leases for that oil as well as other resources.

We'll need to cut military spending and get out of the two wars.
We'll need to increase the revenue base with something other than taxes.
We will have to pay higher taxes if we want to increase spending.

We may never pay off the debt but I hope that each President from here out will leave us in better shape then when they took office. If we do that for a generation or two then we'll be able to pay it down before China takes over the world.

Educating the population would help too.

[kres24GT]

We start by replacing everybody in Congress. End pork barrel spending, demand a balanced budget. Eliminate all earmarks. Require Congress to actually read every single bill proposed and the one who introduced it to justify it.

Term limits. Require every member of Congress and every member of the Administration to live under the same laws they pass for us. If it affects us it should affect them.

Eliminate their retirement and health care. Make them get a 401K and pay for their own health insurance.

Take away their perks.

We can't possibly pay for what they want to do but at least we can start to get it under control.


Pipe dream, within the confines of reality, how do we pay for it?

[kres24GT]

In the short term we're going to borrow more money. That's what you do when you need to grow or times are tough. That's also why you pay down debt when times are good.

Obama inherited a $1.2 Trillion spending deficit when he took office. He also inherited massive unemployment, the largest loss of wealth for citizens since WW II and a financial crisis that made S&Ls look like small change.

My hope is that when he leaves office that unemployment will be better then when he started (as all democrat presidents have done except Carter who left it the same). I also hope that he will follow Clinton and leave the spending deficits as much lower then the $1.2 trillion that he inherited.

Then we must hope that America wants to pay down some debt and that they push for balanced budget again. That will probably mean higher taxes and the federal government drilling for oil and not selling leases for that oil as well as other resources.

We'll need to cut military spending and get out of the two wars.
We'll need to increase the revenue base with something other than taxes.
We will have to pay higher taxes if we want to increase spending.

We may never pay off the debt but I hope that each President from here out will leave us in better shape then when they took office. If we do that for a generation or two then we'll be able to pay it down before China takes over the world.

Educating the population would help too.

Finally, a realistic answer. Somewhat anyway.

You have to raise taxes on everyone, not just the wealthy who have so many loopholes they can get out of paying the higher taxes anyway.

To not even pay off the debt, but just balance the budget we are going to pay a whole host of new taxes soon. Imputed income taxes, 401k seizure, high income taxes, national sales tax. It is not going to be pretty.

We will be sorry for what we have asked for in terms of Big Government.


When times are tough you tighten your belt and take your lumps, you don't borrow money from the mob you can never dream to pay back. Americans used to be willing to sacrifice, to ration in times of need. Where is the leadership to tell the American people to stop being spoiled brats? Not in the current two party system, that is for damn sure.

[Moby]

Finally, a realistic answer. Somewhat anyway.

You have to raise taxes on everyone, not just the wealthy who have so many loopholes they can get out of paying the higher taxes anyway.

To not even pay off the debt, but just balance the budget we are going to pay a whole host of new taxes soon. Imputed income taxes, 401k seizure, high income taxes, national sales tax. It is not going to be pretty.

We will be sorry for what we have asked for in terms of Big Government.


When times are tough you tighten your belt and take your lumps, you don't borrow money from the mob you can never dream to pay back. Americans used to be willing to sacrifice, to ration in times of need. Where is the leadership to tell the American people to stop being spoiled brats? Not in the current two party system, that is for damn sure.
I was sickened by Americans wanting tax cuts while also wanting to send our troops to war. It was perhaps the first time in our nation's history that during a war we weren't asked to give up something but instead, were rewarded by paying less. It's very disturbing.

However, I don't think it requires massive tax hikes or grabbing 401 Ks. During the Clinton years we had a balanced tax plan that managed to pay for expenditures and I think we can have something similar to that. It does require people looking at facts and doing simple math instead of getting all emotional and acting like children.

[kres24GT]

I was sickened by Americans wanting tax cuts while also wanting to send our troops to war. It was perhaps the first time in our nation's history that during a war we weren't asked to give up something but instead, were rewarded by paying less. It's very disturbing.

However, I don't think it requires massive tax hikes or grabbing 401 Ks. During the Clinton years we had a balanced tax plan that managed to pay for expenditures and I think we can have something similar to that. It does require people looking at facts and doing simple math instead of getting all emotional and acting like children.

It is absolutely disgusting. That is why it is so crucial to replace all taxes with a flat tax. No more robbing Peter to pay Paul, when we want something, we all pay for it.

We will never see spending or government the size it was during the Clinton years again. It is going to take massive tax increases to pay for what everyone is asking for, not to mention to actually start paying off the deficit.

Right now we a re running massive deficits and are seriously looking at a massive health care bill that will have huge costs and a second stimulus as well.

As long as one party is i power the spending will never stop and the deficits will keep getting bigger. No accountability in Washington.

[The Professor]

we... are seriously looking at a massive health care bill that will have huge costs and a second stimulus as well

no

that is what the blue leadership wants, true

it is nowhere near what is going down on the ground

aint gonna happen, nothing close

not politics, here, on my part, kres

just the lay of the land

look around, friend

cliff

[MichMike]

It is absolutely disgusting. That is why it is so crucial to replace all taxes with a flat tax. No more robbing Peter to pay Paul, when we want something, we all pay for it.

We will never see spending or government the size it was during the Clinton years again. It is going to take massive tax increases to pay for what everyone is asking for, not to mention to actually start paying off the deficit.

Right now we a re running massive deficits and are seriously looking at a massive health care bill that will have huge costs and a second stimulus as well.

As long as one party is i power the spending will never stop and the deficits will keep getting bigger. No accountability in Washington.


Why don't we simply start cutting the massive waste in the U.S Military (as Obama and Gates have started to do) eliminate ridiculous farm subsidies and use that money to pay down debt and invest in something that is clearly needed - national healthcare.

Problem is, our far right friends love to no bid government military projects (I guess they are socialists too).

[kres24GT]

Why don't we simply start cutting the massive waste in the U.S Military (as Obama and Gates have started to do) eliminate ridiculous farm subsidies and use that money to pay down debt and invest in something that is clearly needed - national healthcare.

Problem is, our far right friends love to no bid government military projects (I guess they are socialists too).

I agree, except on national health care, as I said though we are trying to live in the real world.


let's cut spending and give that money to the people so they can do with tit as thy choose.

[mwillman]

We can save a lot of money by fixing the health care system.

[MichMike]

I agree, except on national health care, as I said though we are trying to live in the real world.


let's cut spending and give that money to the people so they can do with tit as thy choose.


right....and in the real world, it's not ethical to design a healthcare system that is motivated to shun the sick and embrace the healthy/rich. The current system is disgusting and wastes money. If you're worried about cost, check this out>>>we spend more money not doing anything than covering everybody. Also, this is not national heathcare here, just changing the mix of private vs public (45% IS PUBLIC NOW so don't let Fox claim government care is coming...it's already here).

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309076099

[Hog Trash]

Why don't we simply start cutting the massive waste in the U.S Military (as Obama and Gates have started to do) eliminate ridiculous farm subsidies and use that money to pay down debt and invest in something that is clearly needed - national healthcare.

Problem is, our far right friends love to no bid government military projects (I guess they are socialists too).You make some good points here that I agree with.

You are a little confused about the "far right" being the only accomplices of the military complex...Many democrats are also on the payroll.

In fact both major parties are in bed with their respective corporations, organizations and unions.

The tax dollars that are wasted, stolen and mismanaged should be frozen and returned to the people who worked for and earned it.

As far as why we don't divert the taxes to "national healthcare" is simple.

Our unique form of American constitutional government is not based on the teachings of Karl Marx but upon much wiser men called The Founding Fathers

[kres24GT]

right....and in the real world, it's not ethical to design a healthcare system that is motivated to shun the sick and embrace the healthy/rich. The current system is disgusting and wastes money. If you're worried about cost, check this out>>>we spend more money not doing anything than covering everybody. Also, this is not national heathcare here, just changing the mix of private vs public (45% IS PUBLIC NOW so don't let Fox claim government care is coming...it's already here).

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309076099


I am not rich and have great coverage and get great care so not sure how your comment make any sense.

And yes, there is too much governmetn involved now, we need less government.

I don't watch FoxNews, it is a joke, entertainment disguised as news.

[mwillman]

Its nice that you can have so much faith in humans Kres but I and most dont and thats why we have laws and regulations.

They are their to protect people from the nefarious. You would give them a free hand to do what ever they want becuase "the people" is nothing but a couple of word if they do not organize as a society.

If you want to live free then move to the alaskan out back and you wont be asked for anything but leave the real world to people that bother paying attention to it rather then just dreaming of some imaginary people.

[kres24GT]

Its nice that you can have so much faith in humans Kres but I and most dont and thats why we have laws and regulations.

They are their to protect people from the nefarious. You would give them a free hand to do what ever they want becuase "the people" is nothing but a couple of word if they do not organize as a society.

If you want to live free then move to the alaskan out back and you wont be asked for anything but leave the real world to people that bother paying attention to it rather then just dreaming of some imaginary people.

Actually they are their to benefit Big Business and eliminate competition form small business.

Scary that it is OK to take away freedom to feel safer. I take it you don't care that your phones are tapped? Well worth it to sleep safer to night?

I am in the minority, most Americans are like you, they will always trade their freedom, and everyone else's for a little more comfort and safety. Hence why we are moving rapidly toward the police state.

Your fantasy world of government controlling all of our lives will be realized. Big Government always begets more Big Government.


When it is OK to take away freedom in exchange for sleeping a little bit safer, there is no freedom.

[mwillman]

Keep dreaming Kres

Maybe just maybe next time the south will win the civil war.

:lmao2: :lmao2: :lmao2:

[Hog Trash]

The simple truth of the matter is government is to ineficient, corrupt, wasteful, bureaucratic and bogged down in red tape to be trusted with such an important and enormous task.

[mwillman]

The simple truth of the matter is government is to ineficient, corrupt, wasteful, bureaucratic and strangled in red tape to be trusted with such an important and enormous task.

Its amazing how many misinformed stereotypes you can put into one sentence.

Actually the Government can be very efficient when its set up correctly. Secondly all of your adjectives can just as easily be used to describe what we have now so really thats just another argument for change.

Tell me Hog Trash do you have private insurance or do you have some form of government help like medicare or the VA?

[Hog Trash]

Its amazing how many misinformed stereotypes you can put into one sentence.

Actually the Government can be very efficient when its set up correctly. Secondly all of your adjectives can just as easily be used to describe what we have now so really thats just another argument for change.

Tell me Hog Trash do you have private insurance or do you have some form of government help like medicare or the VA?Oh really?....What government are you referring to?....Maybe we should model ours after that one?

[mwillman]

You should look at how well social security works when its not being robbed by politicians.

the number of elderly that were living in adject poverty decreased from over 25% to less then 5%. That was and is a big victory for this nation.
It does need some tuning but its still a very well run system.

When was the last time you got dysentery from bad water or found a dead man on your streets. When was the last time your sewage poisoned your food.

This is the greatest nation on earth(IMHO) and for all its problems our government does a pretty good job most of the time.

We always seem to hit bad patches when we let republicans run things for to long.

[MichMike]

It's amazing to me that the right can complain about bad government after allowing their Jesus (Bush) to run former big business lobbyists into key government watchdog positions! Of course government will fall down when are leaders appoint big business sell out scum...

Check out Crimes Against Nature and tell me about bad government...

http://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Against-Nature-Corporate-Plundering/dp/0060746874

There's a reason why Bush's EPA resigned and the Great Lakes states sued the admin twice!