WTC Movie

[Tommy]

I think its a little fucked up that hollywood is trying to cash in on peoples suffering

A lot of people died and they see dollar signs

[Cleo]

I just don't get watching a movie on it. I saw it live and already know the ending.

I do think it is really fucked up that they aren't building the towers back. To me this is like letting the terrorist win.

[AnthonyC]

I think Hollywood is trying to tug at your heart strings, and your pocket book, but showing you from a firefighters or cops POV

[Simon]

I think building the towers back would have been the best monument they could have come up with (I'd even back idea of putting anti-aircraft emplacements on the top this time).

Seriously, there has been so much time wasted waiting for the 'deciders' to figure out what to do about a memorial. Nothing they've come up with would have the power of seeing those two towers rise again.

Plus, all the pre-2001 movies and tv shows wouldn't look so anachchronistic any more.



--
The antichrist will arrive when gas prices reach US$6.66

[Linkster]

While I agree its a really sick way to take money from people just as I thought flight 93 and many other made for TV shit was in poor taste - I also understand why hollywood producers would be asked to bring this movie out now - its excellent timing since the government seems to have lost their threat warning system (somebody musta pointed out the resemblence to the Gay movements rainbow flag the chart had to the administration)

[AnthonyC]

I think building the towers back would have been the best monument they could have come up with (I'd even back idea of putting anti-aircraft emplacements on the top this time).

Seriously, there has been so much time wasted waiting for the 'deciders' to figure out what to do about a memorial. Nothing they've come up with would have the power of seeing those two towers rise again.

Plus, all the pre-2001 movies and tv shows wouldn't look so anachchronistic any more.



--
The antichrist will arrive when gas prices reach US$6.66


I agree putting those buildings right back where they were would be a great F U back to them.

[Tommy]

I would have loved to see the buildings put back exactly as they were


Linkster your right
it is great timing to bring out this movie right before an election

[yell]

I am with you Tommy i to would love for them to put the buildings as they were.

[Mr. Blue]

I was in NYC when it happened, there's no reason why I want to see this movie, and what benefit does it serve at this moment in time. Maybe if it were 20 years after the fact I could maybe understand it, but it still feels too soon.

It's just Hollywood cashing in on tragedy.

[ecchi]

To me, the question is not "Why did they make this movie?" but "Why the hell would anyone want to watch it?"

[Tommy]

it was sad that night that they used the bat lights to make the outline of the towers

[SirMoby]

While I agree its a really sick way to take money from people just as I thought flight 93 and many other made for TV shit was in poor taste - I also understand why hollywood producers would be asked to bring this movie out now - its excellent timing since the government seems to have lost their threat warning system (somebody musta pointed out the resemblence to the Gay movements rainbow flag the chart had to the administration)
It's all about timing and little more.

[SirMoby]

I don't think they want to put the towers up again. It's not a very defensible point and eventually, unless we stop recruiting terrorists, they would go down again.

[docholly]

:disbelief: What i never understood about 9/11 which lead me to always to believe it was a "set up" was that when Dean Witter decided to occupy some floors there in the late 70's (it was an empty whale at that time--sucking money from the port authority) they took us all on tours of the facilities and one of the main things they addressed was the fact that a plane could never ever hit the towers, as one had hit the Empire state building, because off all the safeguards in place and if a plane ever ventured within so many 1000's of feet or nautical miles of the towers, 2 planes would be dispatched from I think NAS Lakehurst and if they failed to respond, would either be escorted or shot down..

so where were those safeguards on 9/11???? There were also battery operated lights in the stairwells.. each 20 floors of stairs was in a different location so that everyone would be able to evacuate.. and they ran drills 2 times per year, at least from 1979-1984 ..cuz i know i was huffing and puffing by the time i reached the bottom of 22 floors.

anyway to the matter of the movie.. even for historical value, who'd want to relive those moments?? it was bad enough seeing them live.

[ecchi]

I don't think they want to put the towers up again. It's not a very defensible point and eventually, unless we stop recruiting terrorists, they would go down again.
But that is just 'giving in' to the terrorists.

[Kinky Jones]

anybody here gone to see this movie? it doesn't seem to be making the huge money some thought it would, maybe they should have at least waited until we caught the ones responsible so that the story has somewhat of an ending to it

[RawAlex]

I guess I just object to the timing... this would be a much better movie outside of the election cycle. It's current placement is mostly like a republican recruitment film from my point of view.

[Kinky Jones]

I guess I just object to the timing... this would be a much better movie outside of the election cycle. It's current placement is mostly like a republican recruitment film from my point of view.

yeah I feel the same way... I am surely not over 9/11 on a level that I can go pay money to see a movie about it... it is just really bad taste IMO...

and does anybody think that this movie is good for the morale of the terrorists? it is there greatest "accomplishment" to this day and they have to love the fact that we show it over and over and over again, it seems like we are just feeding the fire

[ecchi]

it doesn't seem to be making the huge money some thought it would
If they have read as many posts on as many boards as I have that say words to the effect of "I refuse to see this film on principle" they would not be expecting it to even make 'medium poor' money !

[boortzland]

This was an excellent movie with Nicolas Cage, and a hispanic co-star, who's name i cant remember. Folks need to see this movie, for the same reason they need to play the 9/11 documentaries over and over again, to remind us that we are not invulnerable, and Islamic terrorist organizations are trying to kill the USA and our way of life.

They can not be negotiated with, and are very patient. They hit one of the towers in 1993 and failed to bring it down, so they waited 8 years to try again. These folks will try to kill us, and our allies reguardless wheather our troups are over there or not.

The movie is not a documentary, and is shown from the prospective of 2 port authority Police officers that were trapped in the rubble. It is a very emotion provoking movie. It is a bit long, but if anything were left out it would not have the impact that it does. Its not like some Arnold action flick, but focuses on the 2 individuals, and their familes, and the how the rescue unfolded.
This is a movie I'll get for my collection when it comes out on DVD.:thumbsup:

[boortzland]

Another reason I think folks should see it...alot of folks after 9/11 just shrugged it off because it didnt happen to them. It was like they were watching a movie. People have gotten complacant, tired of war, and just want to pretend that these folks are not out there to get them.

We DO NEED TO BE REMINDED, so that we are vigilant in our war to combat terror.

Reguardless wheather or not we pull out now or not, WE WILL GET HIT AGAIN. And you know that the press and the libs will look to spin it and blame Bush, or who ever is in the White House, like either "They knew", or "They could have stopped it". or my favorite"it was a conspiracy and we did it to our selves to promote war for oil".

Give me a break.

I'm still pissed about 9/11, & I hope they hunt them all down.

[docholly]

Another reason I think folks should see it...alot of folks after 9/11 just shrugged it off because it didnt happen to them. It was like they were watching a movie. People have gotten complacant, tired of war, and just want to pretend that these folks are not out there to get them.

We DO NEED TO BE REMINDED, so that we are vigilant in our war to combat terror.

Reguardless wheather or not we pull out now or not, WE WILL GET HIT AGAIN. And you know that the press and the libs will look to spin it and blame Bush, or who ever is in the White House, like either "They knew", or "They could have stopped it". or my favorite"it was a conspiracy and we did it to our selves to promote war for oil".

Give me a break.

I'm still pissed about 9/11, & I hope they hunt them all down.

Start at the white house.. and move downward..

I don't think he "knew" about it ahead of time OR that he could have stopped it..

HE and his cronies .. did it.

You're pissed about 9/11?? get pissed about all your rights that have been impeded since 9/11. Get pissed about the sheeple who are more than willing to follow an idiot because he's a "fine christian man".

Watching bodies flying out of buildings is not how i'd prefer to spend what little dollars i have left to spend. I lost 22 of my former co workers in the WTC. I worked for 45 days as a volunteer at the armory on 14th street where people came to find "pieces" of their relatives. Where the fuck were you???

[boortzland]

Start at the white house.. and move downward..

I don't think he "knew" about it ahead of time OR that he could have stopped it..

HE and his cronies .. did it.

You're pissed about 9/11?? get pissed about all your rights that have been impeded since 9/11. Get pissed about the sheeple who are more than willing to follow an idiot because he's a "fine christian man".

Watching bodies flying out of buildings is not how i'd prefer to spend what little dollars i have left to spend. I lost 22 of my former co workers in the WTC. I worked for 45 days as a volunteer at the armory on 14th street where people came to find "pieces" of their relatives.

The movie does not show any graphic images like bodies hitting the pavement, It does however show the emotion that the Fire fighters experience when they showed up to go up the tower, and they saw a woman falling. It was done in good taste.

Where the fuck were you???

Hey, I have served my country, and have seen my share of horrible things in person. So me not being there, and loosing co-workers does not make me any less deserving of my anger for my country being attacked.

HE and his cronies .. did it.

Thats just liberal CRAP!

But I will agree that we have lost rights since 9/11, and that does need to be corrected. So many folks are willing to trade "FREEDOM" for "SECURITY".

[docholly]

Thats just liberal CRAP!

But I will agree that we have lost rights since 9/11, and that does need to be corrected. So many folks are willing to trade "FREEDOM" for "SECURITY".

liberal has nothing to do with.. i'm a registered Reagan republican.. but I call them as I see them and George is NOT today or any other day the correct person to be leading this country. What george is, in my opinion, a murderer. Plain and simple.

Hey, I have served my country, and have seen my share of horrible things in person. So me not being there, and loosing co-workers does not make me any less deserving of my anger for my country being attacked.


then direct your anger where it needs to be.. the White House.

[Kinky Jones]

hey boortzland most people that don't like the movie is because people are making money off of it... it probably is a good and heart wrenching movie but why not put it on broadcast TV for every single deserving American can see it without having to pay for it, I just don't like people profiting off of OUR tragedy as a nation :(

and i know they are giving a certain percentage to charitable and good places but IMO all of the profit needs to go into the hands of good, not to line hollywood pockets

[Kinky Jones]

But I will agree that we have lost rights since 9/11, and that does need to be corrected. So many folks are willing to trade "FREEDOM" for "SECURITY".

hear hear! common ground! let's build on that in the future around here... I will try to refrain from saying bad words but I can't promise anything :)

[boortzland]

The Movie was meant as a tribute to the hero's of 9/11, the police and fire first responders, and 2 guys that survived a tragedy.

I'm sure that next year around 9/11 it will be on TV like most other movies, after the movie sales, dvd sales have run their gambit. We are a capitolistic society, and i don't begrudge them of profits. I was not aware that some of the profits were going to victims & families, I'm glad to hear that.

Like any other movie i attend, i went because the subject matter caught my interest, and i thought it would move me or entertain my wife & I for a couple of hours. As in all movies, you will get many differing opinions. Its like the movie "Passion of the Christ". There were very polarizing opinions. Jews thought it was anti semetic, Christians were speechless because it made the Cricifiction more real. Others thought it was too graphic.

[Linkster]

Although there is dissent about who originally stated this - most think it was B Franklin - he at least published it:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

and that is a fact of life that has been repeated throughout history - most recently in Germany in the 1930s through the use of - gee - burning down a building and blaming it on a communist terrorist - and then invading Poland - Hitler was quite a teacher for the current administration - govern by placing fear in the hearts of men and women - they will support anything after that - including giving up the liberties they have fought for over the centuries :banghead:

[boortzland]

Although there is dissent about who originally stated this - most think it was B Franklin - he at least published it:
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

and that is a fact of life that has been repeated throughout history - most recently in Germany in the 1930s through the use of - gee - burning down a building and blaming it on a communist terrorist - and then invading Poland - Hitler was quite a teacher for the current administration - govern by placing fear in the hearts of men and women - they will support anything after that - including giving up the liberties they have fought for over the centuries :banghead:

Reguardless of wheather you like George W Bush and his administration or not, comparing him to the Nazi's is absolutely nuts! This man, and his croneys (as some of you call them) neither planned, nor had prior knowledge of 9/11 before it happened. Ga Congress Woman Cynthia MeKinney floated that one. Those statements will just get you ignored, because they are ludicris.

Those who generally make those statements are left wing liberals with the apeasment mentality. The think all conservative republicans are war mongering nut cases. If you dont beleive that ISLAMIC RADDICAL TERRORIST are out to kill as many westerners as they can (thats us), then you've had your head in the sand since the 1970's. They want to disrupt our economy and way of life, and why? For the same reason we have class warfare and Democrats in this country, jealousy, envy. Those who have more MUST BE EVIL, and they got their wealth by stepping on the lower class in some way. Get over it, if you work hard and put in the effort, you can get ahead, but if you sit back and look for someone to blame, you get what you deserve, nothing.:rant:

We are getting off topic, again. The movie is an inspiring depiction of the hero's involved in the heroic rescues after the 2 planes hit the towers.

[Simon IA Cash]

I agree that it's pretty awful to be profiting from what happened. If a movie is going to be made, it should be a largely voluntary project, with ANY profits going to families affected or other charities. That it is tolerated as a for-profit venture in any way is sickening.

[SirMoby]

Wait until the network stations air the specials this September 11. It will be disgraceful I'm sure.

[SirMoby]

They want to disrupt our economy and way of life, and why? For the same reason we have class warfare and Democrats in this country, jealousy, envy.
And to think I thought that you were an intelligent individual. Obviously I was wrong. :(

[crusader]

I don't think they want to put the towers up again. It's not a very defensible point and eventually, unless we stop recruiting terrorists, they would go down again.

Yes once again another let's blame America talking point has emerged.
And of course the sniveling defeatist attitude of let's not put the Towers back because the Terrorists will get mad at us and try to destroy them again! Was thrown in for good measure! People that feel this way should save themselves a lot of time and grief and just surrender now.
If the Terrorists decide not to cut your head off, you will be kneeling on a prayer rug 5 times a day wishing that you hadn't become such a lock step pacifist.

[Linkster]

I think the point he is making about putting them back up is pretty valid based on history - if you believe that it was really terrorists that took them down. It was the second attempt although I would have to say that with recent discoveries that it being terrorists that did it is rather far-fetched.
But the "people" have to have some type of symbol to pin their fears on - I guess big bad muslim looking terrorists is as good as anything else

[Lovelynice]

If the Terrorists decide not to cut your head off, you will be kneeling on a prayer rug 5 times a day wishing that you hadn't become such a lock step pacifist.

a lot of those beheading videos have later proven to be fake.

Atwar Bahjat horror story is just one [UPDATE: it's a hoax.]
http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2006/05/atwar_bahjat_ho.html

at least three others have also been revealed as fakes, despite still being promoted as real by the USA government and in the USA media.

[Lovelynice]

I think building the towers back would have been the best monument they could have come up with

To me the best memorial would be to do what is done for other places where large numbers of people died; build a memoriaL, not an office block or shopping centre.

[SirMoby]

Yes once again another let's blame America talking point has emerged.
Where in my statement am I blaming anyone? How loud are the voices in your head on the days that you take your meds?
And of course the sniveling defeatist attitude of let's not put the Towers back because the Terrorists will get mad at us and try to destroy them again! Was thrown in for good measure! People that feel this way should save themselves a lot of time and grief and just surrender now.
If the Terrorists decide not to cut your head off, you will be kneeling on a prayer rug 5 times a day wishing that you hadn't become such a lock step pacifist.
Why should we put up a business center where 3,000+ American Citizens died? Shouldn't we learn from past mistakes? Shouldn't we honor those that died?

Maybe you can spend a moment and make a clear statement about the issue. That is if the voices in your head will be quiet long enough for you to type.

[stefan segal]

liberal has nothing to do with.. i'm a registered Reagan republican.. but I call them as I see them and George is NOT today or any other day the correct person to be leading this country. What george is, in my opinion, a murderer. Plain and simple.



then direct your anger where it needs to be.. the White House.


Hi docholly...I read 24 posts before anyone even hinted that the purpose of the movie was to puff smoke into the "fog of treachery" like an even sicker political smear campaign where 'the minds of the people' are always the prize.

I just joined this list and I was begining to wonder if everyone here still thinks the airplanes knocked them down...including #7 that wasn't even hit.

It's so blatently obvious a controlled demolition I am having a reality problem that, not only was there a "controversy" about the deliberate destruction of so many lives and real estate, but that it could continue today.

The fact that this film eased into public access through normal chanels...unlike Moore's film, which had to fight it's way through the back door to get viewed at all, means that it is "bush-approved"...translated, means: that it hammers into the public mind that there exists questions.

Of course there are no questions pertaining to the science/physics involved in how the buildings were taken down, and we have have a solid irrefutable list of those who profited from WTC destruction...the only questions remain are those that move those personages who now stand guilty through overwhelming circumstancial evidence, into guilty though hard evidence.

The purpose of this film was to puff more smoke and mirrors into the fray to blunt the inexorable movement ferreting out those answers as we speak.

I have pondered the problem of how a fire in one's hair causes one's ankles to shear off in measured lengths, collapsing one's whole frame, since when I watched the most miraculous feat of controlled demolition ever attempted, on 9/12, when I could find holes in my horror large enough to think and watch the filmed demolition similtaneously.

The only quasi-answer I could come up with for people accepting the bush fantasy of 9/11, is that no one is prepared to ingest the ramifications which would also be generated from fom the fact that a select few in the top positions of our government helped orchestrate the attack on Americans in America.

Those ramifications, if the truth be accepted, destroy evertone's "comfort zone", requiring the shuffling of everyone's hierarchy of interests, where some immediate response would be now immediately required of them.

Talk about spreading fear...if those in administration came clean about their part in 9/11, you can bet that everyone would would feel justified in experiencing great fear, horror, anger, rage...retribution.

I would suggest, if anyone is experiencing growing difficulties 'whistling past the graveyard' of 9/11, that they bolster their resolve by witnessing this government-approved fable about 9/11.

Stefan

[crusader]

I don't think they want to put the towers up again. It's not a very defensible point and eventually, unless we stop recruiting terrorists, they would go down again.

The statement: "Unless we stop recruiting Terrorists" is a talking point of the Blame America first crowd. Or did you think that you were going to slip that one past us? And since you are so worried about my mental health, I just want you know my medication has been very helpful. Thanks for your concern.

[crusader]

a lot of those beheading videos have later proven to be fake.

Atwar Bahjat horror story is just one [UPDATE: it's a hoax.]
http://abuaardvark.typepad.com/abuaardvark/2006/05/atwar_bahjat_ho.html

at least three others have also been revealed as fakes, despite still being promoted as real by the USA government and in the USA media.

Lovey,
I'm not sure what you are referring to,
The Nick Berg video looked pretty gruesome and real to me.
So, are you willing to take that chance?
But assuming that all these be-headings have been faked.
Does that mean you won't mind kneeling on a prayer rug 5 times a day?
I was assuming that you had better things to do with your time.

[Linkster]

Stefan - I think you will see a lot more about that here in the near future - there is a group of investigators that are looking into the leukemia problems some workers are having after clean up - unfortunately the type of leukemia is related to only one type of exposure - radiation - and with some people now in possesion of some samples from ground zero (good name in my book) - that have been turned over to health physicists for exam (hmmm I used to be one of those) you will find out what really caused the fall.
BTW - a health physicist's job is radiation protection and radiation biology/physics used at nuclear power plants and weapons production - they also are the responders after a detonation from small-grade explosions, all the way up to major nuclear explosions. With two other unexplainable (at least to the conspiricy theorists who dont know any better) effects seen during this event there is a really good chance that someone will be doing some heavy explaining. Those two effects BTW are the fusing of car doors facing the towers at ground level to their frames and the formation of pools of molten metal on the ground which was still molten long after the fall.

One thing that most people miss in their review of what really happened is that communications were occuring between the firefighters in the tower with the command center as they were working hoses up the stairway to the affected floor (where the plane actually hit)
The last communications right before the towers "fell" was that they were moving from one floor down up the stairway - and knowing that the buildings insides were all wallboard and ceiling board streched across metal joists - in order for the firefighters to be at that point it would be an impossibilityfor the temperature one level up to be hot enough to soften or melt steel beams. The firefighters would have been vaporized as the human body cannot stand those temperatures - as a matter of fact a much lower temp is used for turning dead humans into ash at crematoriums every day. But they were still able to talk on their radios from one floor down? This is why the firefighters associations are up in arms in NY as it doesnt work this way - the building didnt even have fire doors on the stairways so the notion that a temperature was reached to soften steel but firefighters stood in a somewhat similar temperature is just plain BS

[Linkster]

Also before anyone starts calling me a conspiracy theorist - I only deal in scientific facts - if you want to give me scientific evidence that supports an alternate occurence thats fine - but it better be able to withstand real testing which so far no one has been able to do with these buildings. Ive heard everything from magnesium bombs to how in the heck could anyone plant explosives and every one of them is easy to explain from a security standpoint (it helps when the company provided a security contract for Dulles Airport, the WTC and United Airlines is Stratesec - oh yeah I guess we're not supposed to talk about Marvin Bush's involvement in that company or the Kuwaiti backing of the company)

[ecchi]

I have not yet made up my mind if I believe the 'official' story or the 'conspiracy' story. But here is a question for the 36% of America who believes the latter.

If you believe the Twin Towers atrocity was perpetrated by the government then what are you doing about it? I have lost count of the number of people who died, because the figure keeps going up (as more of the heroes who helped, die from complications). Most of these people were Americans, and those that were not were still people too. They deserved to live, not be killed by (as you claim) their government. Hell, a good number of the heroes who came to help died. More die every day. These are good, honest, patriotic, American HEROES, and you say they were killed by the government.

Yet you do nothing. You bitch and whine on web boards, but as to actually standing up and being counted, you shrug and let out a Homer Simpson like "Yeah but what can you do?"

If this were a European country the people would be up in protest. As I said, I have not decided who to believe yet, so I can do nothing. But 36% of the country say they think the government were involved. That is over a third of America. That is over 160 million Americans. Yet they sit on your asses and behave like this is 1970's Russia. "Whatever the government does is OK by me" you say "If they want to kill other citizens, fine, I don't want no trouble".

If you genuinely think that the government killed all those innocent people, then why the fuck do you just sit and bitch. In Europe the people would be on the streets, they would be outside their government buildings, they would be demanding resignations, at the very least, and more likely prison sentences.

Yet here in America you sit like whipped puppies. In England, Americans were referred to in the press as "Cheeseburger eating surrender monkeys". You are so proving the British press to be correct.

[stefan segal]

Also before anyone starts calling me a conspiracy theorist - I only deal in scientific facts - if you want to give me scientific evidence that supports an alternate occurence thats fine - but it better be able to withstand real testing which so far no one has been able to do with these buildings. Ive heard everything from magnesium bombs to how in the heck could anyone plant explosives and every one of them is easy to explain from a security standpoint (it helps when the company provided a security contract for Dulles Airport, the WTC and United Airlines is Stratesec - oh yeah I guess we're not supposed to talk about Marvin Bush's involvement in that company or the Kuwaiti backing of the company)

Hi Linkster...this is my third attempt to contact you, each time it has frozen at the time of sending.

I want to thank you for two new forensic elements...the firemen and especially the welded cardoors...that the doors still exist as doors, evidences a relatively instant burst of radiation not explained by the cutting of support beams with "Thermate" ( thermite + sulfur...a trade standard utilized by the demolition industry), but suggests additional energies applied...very interesting.

I have a varifiable bit of evidence for you to analyze:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=87970


Questions:

1.) How did the heat get to ground level to melt this beam. ( I have an uncropped photo which includes a fireman standing at ground level along with this cut beam.)

2.) How can heat make a cut through this beam without deforming the whole of the beam.

3.) Note that the cut is engineered to slip the weight off it's supporting foundation at a 45 degree angle...the proferred method utilized in demolition.

4.) Note that the cut is 90 degrees relative to the face of the beam.

5.) Note that the slag from the cut adhers to sound, non-deformed, steel.


Stefan

Ps...I would like to pursue this further with you, but think due to the complexity of the subject and out of respect for limits of the common space of this venue, if you care to engage, we should do it off list.

[Jeff]

My question is how long after pearl harbor did they start making movies about pearl harbor?

I'm kinda amazed by the conspiracy theory stuff. Drawing another parallel to pearl harbor, I've seen conspiracy claims from then that the government knew the japanese were going to attack and allowed it to happen.

The conspiracy theories make for entertaining fiction, but is it so hard to believe that in a massive bureaucracy the left hand may really not know what the right hand is doing, and that in a chaotic situations (fog of war), not every tiny discrepancy can be accounted for?

[Lovelynice]

If you believe the Twin Towers atrocity was perpetrated by the government then what are you doing about it?

HEAPS.

Maybe you should pay more attention to those rarely reported (in the USA media) but quite large conferences of 9/11 sceptics, and their frequent letters and emails to the USA media whenever the later tries to spout more lies, or check into the news of courtcases started by people like Ellen Mariani and many others were are trying to force the truth to come out.

and that's just in the USA...

Outside the USA, people are being a lot more vocal about it, because afterall, the people who died at the WTC were not only USA citizens - there were many hundreds of people from other nations such as the UK, Japan, Australia, France, Canada, Germany, etc...

Unless you're trying to pretend that we aren't all doing what we can. WHY, what do you expect people to do? Get a gun and start killing PNAC members that they suspect of being involved?

[Lovelynice]

Drawing another parallel to pearl harbor, I've seen conspiracy claims from then that the government knew the japanese were going to attack and allowed it to happen.

They did.

and if you read the McCollum memo, it appears that was the whole plan in the first place.

[Linkster]

stefan - Ive seen that picture as well as some others and although I do agree that it looks like a perfect thermite demolition cut especially with the presence of iron slag inside and out, I am hesitant to positively take that one on as I cant verify if the picture was taken before the iron workers appeared on the scene to help rescuers or not - the reason I bring that up is that having worked in numerous nuclear power plants during shutdowns that also looks exactly like a plasma or oxy-acetelene torch cut, that any good iron worker could do in very little time and with the same appearance of the slag inside and out (although a plasma cutter usually wouldnt leave that type of slag)
If any of these theories were to pan out realistically it would have to be a well timed combined demo as the thermite by itself wouldnt do the trick and the heat from a small fusion device would do it alone - the other problem with a lot of the path to the fusion device is that you will find a lot of people that try to equate it to a nuclear explosion which it is not - most experimental data suggests there would be no actual explosion - just a release of intense heat - and thats only if you use a pure fusion device with no fission trigger.
Is it possible - probably as Im sure the Gov't has many weapons that they dont publicly discuss. Am I certain of that being the cause - not even close :)

The only real things I do know are that 3 buildings went down in a fashion that has never been documented, then blamed on the heat of a fire - yet Ive seen photos of a woman waving a white sheet or flag from the impact point opening an hour after the plane hit and I would have to say that heat hot enough to melt steel sure wouldnt allow a human being to stand up let alone do any physical activity - cause they'd be toast (literally ash)
Secondly, to have terrorists smart enough to fly planes into the exact perfect point, with manuevers in the air that would have killed normal humans on the turns (if there were any passengers they were killed by the turns long before they hit the building), on the one day of the year that the US Govt decided to run a simulation drill of an attack on buildings by planes which inserted false blips on tracking radars and shutdown all CAP flights, and to top it off, have a command center for a NYC drill already set up the day before on (Tommy you might have to correct me on this) I think it was called Pier 92 down the street from the towers?
Then to have a massive effort to remove all debris from the site immediately without a plane crash investigation, an accident investigation and a building failure investigation and truck the stuff off to NJ in dumptrucks with GPS trackers to prevent loss of material - and then ship it overseas to melt down immediately?
I think if I were a victims family I would be doing exactly what a lot of them are doing - and questioning the whole thing.

ecchi - having grown up back in the 60s and looking back at things we did to stand up and be heard - I would totally agree with you - the US has dissolved into an apathetic hoard - at least the majority - of people who have no idea what being a citizen is, and wouldnt know what the first 10 articles of the Constitution are - kinda makes you sick to your stomach when you realize that more Americans voted for the Am. idol contestants than did for the president :banghead:

[stefan segal]

Linkster quote: the reason I bring that up is that having worked in numerous nuclear power plants during shutdowns that also looks exactly like a plasma or oxy-acetelene torch cut, that any good iron worker could do in very little time and with the same appearance of the slag inside and out (although a plasma cutter usually wouldnt leave that type of slag)

Hi Linkster...good assessment overall, but that above can be proved and has been analyzed (samples of the slag taken from the site as souveniers, then later sent to [I can't remember his name., but he is famous and has made a statement of his findings) as "thermate" thermite with the addition of sulfur, that makes it burn hotter.

There is another unimpeachable fact that two weeks after the strike, orbiting infra red sensors were reporting readings of pools, still yet to be uncovered at ground zero, registering upward to 3500 degrees F...I do have links to verify these reports.

Temperatures at these levels cannot be produced through the open-air burning of combustable fuels...it requires the rapid oxidation of metals combined with an abundance of oxygen available at the site of combustion at a comprable rate...this is not possible with forced air, which couldn't be delivered quick enough.

Stefan

[Linkster]

I think the person you are trying to think of is Steven Jones (BYU professor of physics) and his theories of how things happened.

There are a few plausible explanations of the pools of molten metal ranging from thermite to sulfation of the buried hot metal that firemen didnt realize they were causing by spraying water on the debris piles - there are scientifically many explanations but I would have to say there are none so far that have been proven one way or the other scientifically - so I just keep an open mind to all possibilities (guess its my scientific past kicking in)

[ecchi]

Maybe you should pay more attention to those rarely reported (in the USA media) but quite large conferences of 9/11 sceptics, and their frequent letters and emails to the USA media

No, that is exactly what I mean is wrong. A large number of Americans are killed by the government (assuming that theory to be true) and what do the American people do? They "write a stern email to the papers". Jeez.

No I am talking about the protesters who are NOT surrounding the White House, etc. In England, for example, when the public objected to the US military bases being set up over there, hundreds of people surrounded the bases 24/7, FOR YEARS, until the bases were closed. And 'letting a FRIENDLY foreign power set up military bases in your country' is minor compared to killing your own citizens. But in America people just write "a stern email to the press". It is like some bad sketch on a TV show.


and that's just in the USA..Outside the USA, people are being a lot more vocal about it

That's my whole point. Outside the USA people are protesting, inside America WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS people sit on their asses and shrug their shoulders.

Also, when did Americans get so woosy that they needed other people to fight their battles for them?

check into the news of courtcases started by people like Ellen Mariani and many others were are trying to force the truth to come out.

Yes, one or two people are acting, good for them. But 99% of people are just hoping that 'doing nothing' will work.

what do you expect people to do? Get a gun and start killing PNAC members that they suspect of being involved?

That is just a stupid suggestion, grow up.

[Lovelynice]

No, that is exactly what I mean is wrong. A large number of Americans are killed by the government (assuming that theory to be true) and what do the American people do? They "write a stern email to the papers". Jeez.

No I am talking about the protesters who are NOT surrounding the White House, etc. In England, for example, when the public objected to the US military bases being set up over there, hundreds of people surrounded the bases 24/7, FOR YEARS, until the bases were closed. And 'letting a FRIENDLY foreign power set up military bases in your country' is minor compared to killing your own citizens. But in America people just write "a stern email to the press". It is like some bad sketch on a TV show.



That's my whole point. Outside the USA people are protesting, inside America WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS people sit on their asses and shrug their shoulders.

Also, when did Americans get so woosy that they needed other people to fight their battles for them?



Yes, one or two people are acting, good for them. But 99% of people are just hoping that 'doing nothing' will work.


Fine, good points - at least about the USA, although I know that many protests are not aired in the current USA news media. Those "free speech" zones being a big part of the reason, but the media seems to deliberately ignore dissenters.



That is just a stupid suggestion, grow up.

That insult wasn't necessary. :(

[Lovelynice]

I think the person you are trying to think of is Steven Jones (BYU professor of physics) and his theories of how things happened.

There are a few plausible explanations of the pools of molten metal ranging from thermite to sulfation of the buried hot metal that firemen didnt realize they were causing by spraying water on the debris piles - there are scientifically many explanations but I would have to say there are none so far that have been proven one way or the other scientifically - so I just keep an open mind to all possibilities (guess its my scientific past kicking in)

There was enough energy in the collapse themselves to create the heat for melting around 180 tons of steel; I saw the calculations for it, but I'm not sure how much steel was in such a molten state or the insulation properties of the debris that covered it.

On the other hand, there was not enough energy for a gravity-driven collapse anyway. Nobody has been able to simulate them as such, or provide mathematical formula to show it was possible with the empirical data. Not even NIST; who have never released their formula either. When they couldn't simulate the collapses, they just made some assumptions.More recently, they have all but stated officially "We don't know".They have said that the "pancake collapse" of NOVA/Eagar wouldn't work.

[ecchi]

That insult wasn't necessary. :(
I think you'll find you started it with "Unless you're trying to pretend that we aren't all doing what we can. WHY, what do you expect people to do? Get a gun and start killing PNAC members that they suspect of being involved?". Don't post insulting comments like this if you cannot take suitable replies to them.

[Linkster]

No I am talking about the protesters who are NOT surrounding the White House, etc. But in America people just write "a stern email to the press". It is like some bad sketch on a TV show.

That's my whole point. Outside the USA people are protesting, inside America WHERE IT REALLY MATTERS people sit on their asses and shrug their shoulders.

Also, when did Americans get so woosy that they needed other people to fight their battles for them?
.

ecchi - although I totally agree with you having been one of those protesters back in the 60s that did exactly that - and Im not making excuses for anyone - right now you cannot surround the white house - as a matter of fact you cant protest anywhere near it because of the security area they have set up for blocks around it on the pretense of terrorist security measures
You wouldnt be able to get a million protesters in America to show up anyhwere at the same time nowadays - youare totally correct that they wont go out of their way to voice their beliefs. Remember also that those same adults that fall in lockstep with everything they see on CNN and Fox etc, are the ones that raised the current college kids who could care less about the news - cause its not on MTV
And yes most of them expect someone else to go fight their battles for them - you'll notice that no parents have become involved until their little johnnie comes home in a box - and they wont as long as this military is non-draft
Institute the draft and I guarantee that parents will be out in force as will their little boys and girls

As long as mom can get to Walmart and McDonalds, Curves and get gas for less than $5 a gallon you wont see them bitching - and theyll still nod and accept everything they are told

[SirMoby]

and they wont as long as this military is non-draft
Institute the draft and I guarantee that parents will be out in force as will their little boys and girls
I think that's one reason why PNAC doesn't want to win the Presidential election in 2008. There will be no way to avoid the draft or raising taxes because Dubya is going to make us so thin on troops and money.

I really think that PNAC is looking to 2012 or 2016 to take over but I could be wrong. I just can't imagine anyone wanting to be in a position to fix the mess that's been created since January 2001.

[Linkster]

Moby - my belief is that Iran will become a battlefield shortly and that will suit the PNAC perfectly as then they have a reason to justify the draft - as well as the use of tactical nukes as a first test. I also believe that the first strike will be the use of Israel terrorist attacks but they may also involve some US soil attempts (have to be visible on mainstream TV) - but in the meantime Im gonna reflect on this date in 1982 when the thousands of dead Palestinians were found by reporters after the Israeli terrorists had raped, tortured and then systematically killed (at first reports it was over 3500 but that number got a lot higher) the women, elderly and children that had been interred in prison camps during Israels invasion. Israel still has its own little holocaust to live down - but then you'll never hear about it on US television.
As far as most middle-eastern terrorists are concerned, this was the event that 9/11 was payback for

[Linkster]

BTW - since you'll never see anything on US media - here's the link to a good explanation of what happened and the following investigation - named inthe article are two US journalists who also took pictures (pretty revolting when I saw them back then) and what came out at the inquiries:
http://www.jerusalemites.org/crimes/massacres/1.htm

[SirMoby]

Moby - my belief is that Iran will become a battlefield shortly and that will suit the PNAC perfectly as then they have a reason to justify the draft - as well as the use of tactical nukes as a first test.
You could be right. They've tested the American people and even after being wrong on just about everything, people still believe in the administration so Dubya changing direction and starting a draft after he insisted he wouldn't probably won't phase his supporters since they're going on blind faith now.

[stefan segal]

Linkster...have you seen this video?

Stefan

[stefan segal]

Linkster...I suppose you're wondering: "What video?"

Good question:)

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...90071483512003


Stefan

[Linkster]

stefan :) although when you put the link in there it truncated - so I guess I can still ask
What video? :thumbsup:

[stefan segal]

Linkster...I can't seem to find another direct link, but here is where you find it...among others.

The title: 9/11 Mysteries...it high quality and full length...just over an hour but well worth it IMO

http://belowgroundsurface.org/

I hope this gets you there

Stefan

[Lovelynice]

I think you'll find you started it with "Unless you're trying to pretend that we aren't all doing what we can. WHY, what do you expect people to do? Get a gun and start killing PNAC members that they suspect of being involved?". Don't post insulting comments like this if you cannot take suitable replies to them.

I don't agree with that what you said was a suitable reply, It was actually a very rude put down, which is what made it wrong.

[ecchi]

I don't agree with that what you said was a suitable reply, It was actually a very rude put down, which is what made it wrong.
And you think what I was replying to was not rude and insulting??????? Or do you mean you think you should be allowed to post rude and insulting comments without the person you are insulting having the right to reply?

[Lovelynice]

And you think what I was replying to was not rude and insulting?

No, I don't. You jumped up and down like it was the worst possible thing, but to me you were taking a very strange twist on what I stated, which was only meant as sarcasm and NOT a personal insult directed at you. However, you replied with a personal insult that was directed not only at me, but to me was over the top and unbalanced

[ecchi]

No, I don't. You jumped up and down like it was the worst possible thing.........
Well where you come from it might be normal to pick up a gun and start killing people, I'll even accept you don't believe that it is an insult to say that someone suggested people do this. But fortunately most of us live in civilised places, and there that sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

This is getting boring for everyone, so I'll accept that you are one sick puppy and genuinely do not think that you were being insulting, just to end this debate.

As I said, this is getting boring for everyone so I'll not reply on this subject again (lookie, you can get the 'last word' in if you want), but if you really cannot see why I was so annoyed at your original post, then you have a problem. I know people post things in the heat of the moment that they regret, or at least do not realise what they are saying when they post. But if after calming down and thinking about it, you still cannot see why it is insulting to infer that someone thinks it is OK to go about killing people if they disagree with them, then (and this is genuine advice, not a cheap shot) you should talk to a professional about this.

[Lovelynice]

Well where you come from it might be normal to pick up a gun and start killing people, I'll even accept you don't believe that it is an insult to say that someone suggested people do this. ...

I was being SARCASTIC, do you get it yet?

[stefan segal]

Are you guys closet repugs??? You've hijacked an important issue to carry on your cat-fight.

Stefan